Nibley City Council- 6/12/25

start between us and joint park development area us being city hall here park we're going to have update on park signage project we've been doing over the years. We put some money to try to uh make our beautify our parts a little bit. Levi's been working on this for quite a while with Ron. Try to get some kind of way finding. Hey, make it to this part by going this route, things like that. So, that's just kind of an ongoing continuing project. And we completed some projects over the last year. That's the next few lines. There's no money budgeted for those. Security upgrades include park security upgrade. We talked about so we Rob Steve and I had quite a bit of discussion about the park or what's it to do for security upgrades. I know the last two years we've had pretty large ticket items with keyless entry remote keys kind of thing as well as security camera system. They have some minor things they need to finish up and complete on that. We looked at the benefit of the benefit versus the cost of including campus in our parks and that cost compared to what it takes to take care of a lot of vandalism. Really feel like, you know, we're going to try to some other things first. We're going to do some tying blocks and just spend a lot less money to see if we can make a difference on evangelism and things like that. So, we are not anticipating spending a large amount of money on security this year. next year. We'll see how it goes. But just to make it possible to do the things that at our parks that we've done here, we need to expand the communication network, which is towers and radio equipment that we currently use to operate our water and sewer system. And that's a pretty big expense just to do that. And then on top of that, you've got the next camps. So, as we went through it, Rod, Steve, and I decided that we'd want to try a few other little smaller things this year before we pull the trigger. for another ticket security. So this is page two of the capital projects pedestrian safety improvements. We've had a lot of discussion about this one. I don't think we're we you know we had we had this what's that line called down here? Um there was a grant that we were applying for safe streets for all where we thought we were going to spend the money. We had budget this year doing a bunch of projects to support that grant. We didn't end up getting that grant. So we budgeted money to do some of those projects this fiscal year because we're not obviously have time to get them done. So, we're going the the big one that's on tap right now is to put a mid block crossing from Andrew Park over to the original development to try to give people a way to cross 3200 South after our events and just, you know, there's trails that go through there. And so, we're just trying to implement some of those things to try. So, that's really the only pedestrian safety improvement we have planned. Now, I said down here there we are for that same grant again. We believe we have a better option. We apply once they've seen our application. Sometimes it takes two, three times to get into some of these grants. And so that's what that project there is. I believe I have my some of those projects are they were to temporary boldouts and kind of do some temporary things so that we could show a before and after effect on traffic to see if there was good uh what am I trying to say? Good result from the test. And if there was good results then we can go back then phase 2B gets a little confused and we're continuing to call this bike park until we get the bike park done. You're going to hear one park because that was what was kind of land early grant application even though we officially named the park city 7 park. So, I hope that doesn't confuse people. Have to keep track of that. But this $800,000 we had budgeted, we were hoping to get $400,000 from wraps and 400 an additional 400,000 from we have heard that we are not going to get the and we got about 200 from wraps. So, we need to make a decision at some point to try to figure out how to use the 200 grand we got from BRS and not jeopardize that money while continuing because the same principle applies and will apply for the grant again and we have a better shot at might try to get another 400 that would be 600 and that would be 200 out of pocket if that makes sense. So, this one is just going to kind of flow and be fluffy until we kind of get some things figured out, figured nailed down. We'll make sure we keep you in the loop on it. But, at some point, we're going to have to decide we just want to spend our money and get that done. Continue to try to milk it out getting these these grants. That's one we'll just have to watch. The West Regional Storm Drain Line is a line from the development that is called the Fields, otherwise formerly known as the Gibbs Forest Track property north of 3200 southwest of 1200 West. There's some pretty amazing, if anybody's interested, videos of some of the flooding that's gone on there over the years. We've had large mill for 8 minutes. And so with the development coming in, we thought it's a great time to peg some money and try to solve that issue or at least do everything we could to minimize that issue. That would entail piping all the way from the northwest corner of that property straight west all the way to the Hyram Slooh which would be as Tom and I looked at we believe will be an amazing benefit to that area of town and really help out the water situation. So B's working quite extensively with the developer on that engineering works and things are covered there but that is what that money is headed to for construct that now that line from the corn is actually move on property we have an existing easement now that gets most of the way there we have talked to them about obtaining the rest of that easement they seem bored with that we're just working through some of those details so hopefully that project will solve solve pretty large problem we've had in that area for a long time. One of the other new ones is this 2600 South range of sidewalks. 2600 South is one of the oldest placed area in town as it also has the nib entry school and one of the issues safety issues with that school is that people because there's no curb and gun people are using the space between the edge of the asphalt and sidewalk to park and wait for their kids to be picked up from school and school gets out there's a large kids that comes out and tries to walk down that bike wide sidewalk. Some of them end up in the street. The kids on bikes don't want to wait for the walkers. So they're out in the street. So, we've made some Well, we've had discussions with and the school is interested in widening that sidewalk and while we're widening that sidewalk, we might as well do some curbing gut or do some drainage improvements know that some of those little spots get pretty mucky and muddy. And so, we Tom has put together an estimate to make that work. We have not really gone out to the public yet on that. We need to do a, you know, go talk to these people and help them understand what we're trying to do. There's because it's so old, there's a lot of history with 2600 South and the existing sidewalk and there's some residents that were around when that went in and they strong feelings about things they think were going to happen back then didn't. So, I believe that most of them should be happy with this project, but we still got to work through that. So, we're just plugging in the number right now. can start working way down that train to line that side with that safety improvement for the school. I know they would be really happy with that. Any questions there? That's kind of that's pretty new. I don't think you guys have heard that one at all. So, you know, we're looking at see what we can do. We may have and hopefully $250,000 is enough. We're doing one side of the room, maybe the other side at the same time. We have some decisions we kind of need to iron out there, but that's kind of our first chunk and trying to get it in. The next one is uh $37,000. This one's a little bit unique because there is a grand opportunity that Cash County is pursuing to try to make 44 South the future highway between 899 and 65. We've been in the middle of discussion about trying to move 101 off of their main street to try to get it on 44 South. So this is improved phases of discussion being talked about. You got some studies through there and one of the things that the county has done is apply for a grant for a million dollars, right? Yeah. About a million bucks. I'm not I apologize. I can't remember exactly what that number is, but they've gone out to the municipalities in the area for assistance in meeting the match for that grant. So our portion of that grant between us hiring Wellsville and the county Wellsville yes three communities would be $37,000. The streets change floor repair because of that building was built I believe about 20 years ago just due to the nature of those that equipment being out there and some of the salt and talked about spraying off this pressure washer. the salt messed up the floor of that shop in some pretty key location into the floor and get out there. Some of it's falling. It's actually created some tripping hazard. So, we're asking for $35,000 to go floor that would just basically rip out the parts that are tore up and nasty or a new floor with better slope that would get the water out of there. Hopefully, not have this problem happen. So, that's what that was. So this next chart, this is you already see this is just all the new stuff on the new capital projects at it. So I don't need to go over it again, but any questions on capital projects? It's kind of a big portion of the budget. The the million dollar thing is actually through the CMO, but it's not the result of local op sales tax go through the council. It's actually money from the federal highway administration that is granted to the cash cash metropolitan planning organization. And so the mayor's side what they would like that money to go to and there's still a little bit of competition within Cash County but that's the million dollars even though it comes through CNO. It's not cosmic from the local option sales tax. It's been highly dist. Yeah, I think that was the key was they were trying to meditate. So it's an interesting road for us because we proposed that as the dividing lane. So with the water as well as water impact function of those two funs can take care of the water system. Big news is the well aware of what's going on there and process mentioned the loan that we got. So, we also because of the staff turnover things that are going on in the age of our existing water master plan, we really want to hit that hard this year. Jokingly told these guys that we seal this thing with a bloody thumb print to make this plan set in stone. Give us our guidance. Give us our direction and just work for the next five years. So, the master plan budget hits a go. We're kind of in the middle of a couple right now. We're trying to pick those up and finish before we move on this one, but we didn't want to get the water master plant redone. The other increase in cost in the water department mostly come from water meters. Those just continue to go up and up. They're changing them. So, you can't replace parts. You have to buy a whole new meter. So, water meters are an increase in expense. Now, a lot of those meters are from new and as we build new things, we charge that cost for the meter to the development. However, there's a lot of meters that have been in the system in the city for close to 20 25 years now. We're starting to see those go out. So, as those go out, we're returning them to the company, getting whatever prorated come out, the warranty is left on that meter, and having to purchase new meters to replace meters that are going out. We're very passionate about that and trying to make sure we stay on top of that. So, we're trying to find that. So when is there to place you can just let them die. So continue the other continues to go up the water quite substantially over the last few years. So those are kind of increasing cost water. So again change we have some money back in there to figure out time for the south to reach the police station as I did put amended to put a new 19ish west so that we could reduce the need or the size of this lift station. This is just kind of the next step of planning and preparation with sewing that area of town which is relevant to some issues and things that are going on in that area. Storm doesn't have some of the money. So we didn't do a lot with the storm water fund. That's why that storm water project that I mentioned earlier is coming out of capital projects, not storm water. Now, we did take a good chunk of money out the storm water fund last year to pay for sweeper. So, that's why that bond is a little bit on the lower side of things, which is why we're we have we didn't change much or add much in that department. We're just going to let it roll and build that fun back up a little bit. Paul mentioned we're doing the storm water master plan. As part of that master plan, we are looking at adjusting what we are charging for the storm water rate. believe off of memory it was pretty similar to what we're getting with the water rate. It was about two bucksish per month increase from 8 to 10 bucks a month. So that is all yet to become yet to be decided and determined by you. We'll have all that master plan and all that laid out for you hopefully within the next two months. I'm going to say we'll give that to you. Okay. I already mentioned this. We we hit the education travel training button pretty much here. The other one that continues to comply with was software list of all the software that we use throughout the city. The big one is Cassel which is our utility billing our accounting. We do a lot of work through Cassell. Civic review is a lot of permitting, a lot of dog licensing, a lot of ways that we interact public people applying for things and covering the cost up. that but that that software is not cheap but also it's been been a great asset to us and really cut down a lot lot of advers I didn't do what I wanted to do but is this big down here this was $23,000 for an asset management software and what the asset management software is way for us to take our GIS take all our water feeders on fittings, every basically any asset that we go into the city that's out, we put all GIS, which I believe most that's already in there, but this is a way for us to track each individual item, make decisions on replacement and maintenance and things that we should be doing to manage all those those assets. This is a think for us it's required to have an asset management program to go to the state and get the loan that we have. Now that bar is pretty low. This software is going to be put as miles ahead of the bar that we need to meet to have the asset management. But because it is such a big ticket item and because we get ahead of myself a little bit, I put it in the budget, but I want you to tell me whether you want me to take it out of the budget or whether you want me to leave it in the budget knowing that we will not pull that trigger. will not spend that money until we agree that agenda to you get to explain what it is, what benefit to us and provide to the city and give you the opportunity to tell us to pull that trigger. So that's a year subscription that is a year that's $23,000 for the first year. I believe the annual subscription is it's high but I don't think it's quite that 18 off of memory. It's pretty but there is a little bit of setup. So like I said we'll all those details laid out in front of you to do that but currently it is built in budget. Now I'll have the same discussion with the software that we have been Levi and Evan discussing about code enforcement code enforcement software to help track things, help us be efficient faster, be able to get in and out of places that we need to be. And I thought hiring put that in the budget, but that one needs budget. So I'd like to sync these up. I would either I'd like to do the same thing for both. Either we put both of them and not pull the trigger that we brought the agenda item for you or just pull them out of the budget, bring the agenda item for you guys and then the budget to actually pull trigger. Does that make sense? Yeah, it could be pretty quick. Every time get full time, our agendas are going to be short. Next thing you know, we got it on our Yeah. So, how much is the code enforcement software? What $12,000? I think it's 12,000 for the upstart and then more like seven going forward. Yeah. Cost next year's kind if you will into next year's budget for the upfront cost and then the years following after next year should be reduced pretty close to what we're have budgeted now. So we have asked Justin to narrow this gap of conservancy being conserv conservative about underestimating revenues over leaving the budget as an example of overestimating the expenses saying or having the opportunity to decide that we really don't want to spend that money just as promising. But if we would be able to look at the details before we spend that money, it'll live up to that. But that's a conservative approach to to budgeting. It loses a little bit of actions. So that's I don't think you need an answer right now, but we can get that in the final version for sure by next. Right. All right. We've already I know this. Even though as staff have a lot of wishes, this is a wish list of things that we hope to obtain or accomplish over the next few years. The big ones are on the bottom. Public works facility expansion, this back truck. We want to stay on top of our back and make sure that we're staying in the sweet spot of what that thing's worth and selling it, getting a new one versus just letting it driving it to the ground. So, city hall has been discussed. We're pretty full of city hall. We got there before starting. Maybe we can make some minor adjustments between now and then. The other big one looming out there is study that indoor recreation. Just want to keep these kind of things on you guys radar. Continuing discussion and expecting to see these kinds of things in the future. Right. These are not baked into the budget. These are not this is sorry we're wrapping this thing up. Things that we have left to do to put a bow on this budget and be done this this year is the decision on the two softwares we just talked about on how we handle that in the budget. You want lower the expense due to the primary could do that. Oh, this fourth bullet is the big one that just came up a couple weeks ago. I was reached out to by the member cemetery Milville Milville cemetery that uh that is currently exists over in Milville. They have entity they have taxing authority they have the authority to tax they have the line tax it's a very small amount but they do have the authority to tax people to fund the cemetery. They are looking at a project to expand and construct a road. They have contracted with county staff and county resources to actually construct the road. So, they feel like they're getting a really good deal on the road, but they just reached out and want to know if Nibi City would like to help them pay that. I didn't get a lot of any other details of I believe he said that they were going to build it for $40,000. So, it's it's just kind of a request that came in from the cemetery board on helping them construct that. That's that's all. Do you want discussion on discussion? relationship with no so I doubt Milville's gonna participate or not. This just kind of came up. So this is a road in Millville in the cemetery. Yeah. To benefit the cemetery. Yeah. Which benefits not newly citizens but benefits those of us that live in the cemetery district. Right. and they have the power to generate money by doing their own taxes and doing their own expenses, but their proposal is that we would help them build that road. Yeah, they just asked if you would like to help them. And they also asked I don't know. I said I could find that out there. I think they should look at building another cemetery in you know I thought about that there would be a lot of flooding but let's figure out how to anchor them. build it like they do in the road. You can find a few up on the bench. Oh, those are those are harmless corpses by the time they put them in those lead boxes. Check it out. We have that special meeting today for our property tax rates going to be 26 we will have a public hearing happy to give this presentation again hope to with the air and staff get after it I to give a any time that she wanted she'd welcome to like any questions you have for happy to answer any questions you guys have about that was good so I'm going to turn it to the council now this is a this is before you to consider on first reading which means you learn the information you get a chance to ask questions next slide uh you get a chance to ask for additional information that you would like to have before we get to the second reading. And if there are any of those for the council to discuss, let's do it. And you're also welcome to make a motion to either adopt this on first reading or kill it. Kill the budget. motion to approve. We have a motion and a second from Norm to approve for first reading. Thank you. Any discussion? I know myself a couple uh maybe thoughts. Um we're trying to get uh I know Tom does amazing job and know he just got us 50,000 on a year. I almost wondered if we have like a little bit of a cushion in there in case we need to have somebody else to there's projects that you're um can't get to or overwhelmed or we can chase a grant to do those. Then also just like for professional fees if we need to outsource something and then maybe too where we have a bunch of commercial properties coming in maybe if we get a project maybe get some commercial consultant also kind of help us navigate and clear those up. I don't know what that number would be. I know we had we put one time we put in for a grant writer that we I don't know if we use much and that's one if we had something there just in case uh something comes up like another firefly we got to build something really quick that we have some fun that we could probably yeah presentation we do have money budgeted throughout the budget seven or eight different places water sewer streets each have their own little bucket. In the past, that's been sufficient, but we can I can show you all of those and we can get to one's opinion of whether or not those are sufficient. I'm pretty sure going to give you, but I'm happy to go with that. Just don't want to get burned out. And then I know we talked too that the the impact fees from the school coming in that might be some we mentioned put them on or not. the 250,000 they pointed that we're there. I don't know if that's So, we did get that check. They paid him. Okay, it's done. It's in your town. Okay. So, those impact fees for streets specifically go towards 12 West. Okay. Apologize projects listed in but that we we have that money. Okay. of less it might not be reflected in a financial statement. Um we'll have to double check to see if it was just very recent. I mean these are engineering and review and impact fees that we asked of the school district according to our fee schedule. I'm trying to figure out why 12 West was in there. Is that safe routes to school or it's it's based on the study. There's there's two plans that work hand in hand. I'm sorry I can't remember the names. I apologize both of them, but that's what you base your impact fee on and you have to have a very specific list of what those pay for. So if I guess I can't I know for sure less and pay less included in the calculations despite the amazing amount of grant money we got there. We did have 8% match. Well, and that that will come into probably, but really that I think your answer goes back to what the original road impact fee study did to justify the impact fee. Yeah, exactly. We need to show I don't know. Maybe we need to send school district thank you note. I I mean we discussed that briefly here. I invited you to tell me if you I'm just follow any other thoughts on the first reading of this um In terms of those two stupid softwares, uh I think I I'm personally just leaning toward taking them out of the budget for now and then if and when we hear that presentation instead reopen the budget, we'll get that's the way to be accurate. Yeah. If you want to just because we are presented and you can make sure as far do it now or you can do it at second reading. You know, typically we do amendments at second reading. But that's Yeah, but if you give it to me now, I can go an amendment show difference in numbers are I personally I would prefer if there's things like that you want done, let's just make a motion, make it happen. Amy and I need to make sure we track all that. So as these changes happen, we're far enough into the process, we got to keep a good list. So motion would be nice. Thank you. to manage the budget, take out the Apple management software cost and the code software cost. I probably also lower the election expense as suggested. So the code enforcement's already not in there. Okay. Right. Sorry. There's a motion and second for more that would be to remove the asset management software expense and the elections expense for because we won't have discussion on that. I think it's a good motion. Um, I I think it's what we're trying to do. Be more accurate, be not not have a hidden savings account, which works great at home, by the way. Maybe not the way from on city goats. I just underestimate income and overestimate expenses. The end of the year, we have more than we thought we'd have. Um, I'm not Erin, I just ask. You're still willing to consider the asset management software. You just have to do it just a better date. And I think that when we get to that, Justin, maybe the folks that write the software can help you. How much money are we going to save by buying our software? Where's the payoff? Where's the break even? Long-term plan. Y discussion on the motion to see none. Those in favor of that amendment, please say I. I. Any opposed? Passes. So now we have an amended motion to adopt. Any opposition to voting or do you have more of the wish list that we have there? Um I know there was two departments that had suggested that they could really benefit from an additional employee. uh streets and recreation. Um I'm wondering if you think either of those are like dire needs that we should be considered that seriously this year. Stephen and I and Chad have talked quite a bit about it. Stephen and I are of the opinion that it's not quite dire enough yet to pull a trigger for the tree spark. Chad and I have had less discussion. Um, so I would maybe yield to chat a little bit on that necessity from chat will take anything you can give it anytime. I'm sure you're not today to just enumerate how that would benefit the community, but happy to share that later if you'd like. Yeah, I could have stand for chat. We could focus on that and kind of bring that back just as a discussion. Yeah, I just would like to see our department be able to work as well as they can. So, I mean, since that's been suggested that there's a need there, make sure we discuss that. I'm not sure how to say this. Um, so I'll just say it without certainly showing any lack of sincere appreciation for the staff that we have in Nibi. It's we have a fantastic group of people. They're dedicated to their jobs. They're customer centric and they do really really good work. When I think about a 6% yearon-year kind of increase in salaries, that's more than what I saw in private practice. And maybe I just need to be educated on um you know what it what it what I I want to keep these employees. There's no doubt about that. We went through the whole salary review thing and so on and so forth. Was the was a was a is there with with the salary view stuff and was there an expectation of 3% merit raises every year that got baked into that? No. So if if you golden handcuffs is what he called it a lot of discussion amongst his staff it was to once you analyze the position position independent of the person. Yeah, you analyze the position and what value of that position is. You have a lower limit and an upper limit. And his methodology was to get to 55% of that range in five years. Okay. Once you have that person for five years and they built up to about 55% in the middle of that range, they're kind of like paid well enough that they're not going happy enough. They're not really places. That was his balance was trying to get everybody to 55%. Now some of them were really close to that 55% but they were there. So they didn't get an adjustment when we did that. And so this this kind of resets maybe maybe bump some of those that didn't get that. And really what we're trying to do is get to about 55 maybe even where each employee is analyzed and looked at. I have a spreadsheet I can show you with the projection of if they were to get up to 55% and then thereafter it's actually 1% raised you know to get to sort of that 30-year career you're getting to the top of that range. Now we had a lot of discussion among staff whether that's a good thing bad thing we tried to come up with different ideas in the end we came back to following recommendation and that's all working so so part of so my concern of is 6% year on year or a number of years sustainable is like you probably agree it's not correct that's why we did the share that number was much bigger than 6% Yeah. So, but we still have some catching up to do to get people to the middle. Yeah, that's of this value rank. Yeah. Okay. Get people into that sweet spot so that they're got golden handcuffs. That's what this term wants to kind of get in there. Once you get to there, golden handcuffs means they can't to leave. Don't I want them not to leave because such a great group of people to work with and such a great bunch of citizens and what a great job the city council does. I don't want them to think about compensation. But still, it's easy to hang on. Okay, I'm good with that. Um, and also I again, this is no lack of just sincere appreciation for NibLy City staff and what we have going here. It's exactly the opposite, even though it doesn't sound that way. And so I'll finish it by saying by the way um I think there should be outliers that reach the top of the range the really good people you know I don't want to have medium median or average employees in this town so when we can justify uh paying an outlying salary for an outlying performance then that's corporate Yeah, agree. Problem is is we have a lot of really so I Okay, thank you. to that the cost of living at least what I've seen to Google is two and a half% um we just do 3% just because that's what we've done in the past. No, uh it's really varied in the past. It bounced from two three years ago seven to five up to seven. This year really kind of came down to when I built the budget a few years ago or two months ago and kind of was really kind of bounced down. Seemed like three was just a little bit better than it what the CDI was. the consumer price index from the consu from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, right? It's right around seven. Not sure which source. So, did that answer your question? I tried to be a little bit better. No, I appreciate it. Possibilities. Yeah. Yeah. And then that's when I, you know, when you compare it to everybody else in the state and what they're doing and I know later talk about 12 and common issues depends how the conversation goes. I was hoping to bring these old ones up to the newer standards and maybe what that cost would be. I guess we can see that outcomes. But there be one more item that I was thinking just so that all you Yeah, Tom's ready to talk about it. But if we present that information, is there opposition voting on first reading? Same. I'll ask for the vote. Those in favor of adopting the budget as amended tonight or for screening to bring it back for public hearing and second reading, please say close. So, by the way, with I I knew I knew Garrett ended up with a commitment and sorry the case know there's health stuff going on there. So anything that is adopted by the council tonight have be a forum of the council not a majority of those list. Uh why don't we knock out the um the next one number nine that's uh compensation of elected statuto officials on I think that's should be quick it's for first reading also there'll be a public hearing on that and then we'll start our links okay so really this is just a chart of what the annual salaries are total salaries any bonuses and the increase in salary for mayor council members and all of the department heads including myself. Okay, just council have a motion on that motion and discussion. I have a question please. There I can scroll down too. There's more. There was one earlier that like wasn't really adding up. No, I think it is. No, that's my question. So on senior quarter an HR director goes from 88 to 99, but the rest of them seem to do a 3% increase. That's one of those we changing a little bit of the duties responsibilities, right? I'm just wondering why did why didn't we change that when change some of the other salaries? Great question. just changed things since then. Yeah, I guess ultimately it's it's to it's to move that position to a salary. That position had an salary then got a lot of overtime or being and so we're just going to roll it to a salary position that not dog Okay. Opposition to voting motion for first reading. Motion to approve these increases for first reading. Second from Nathan. Thank you. Discussion. Seeing none, uh let's call for a vote. Those in favor of approving for first reading, please say I. That passes. Thank you very much. All right, let's take a 4 minute break. Drink water. Be back here at 8:45. Yeah, you're right. that it's not a 6% in fact. Uh Martin Stevie trying to buy a house. So you got married and so let's buy a house. How did that go? Not too good. know half million dollars something ridiculous. So then they pay for as they should. They're doing due diligence. They've done due diligence on you know houses they got fresh color to inspection. those fishing trips you took your what's your what's your future look what do you want I'm not going to do we got to get him space control and I went and we need to save some money. Let's get his tax and I don't put all that 10 west. So this is number 10. This is called 12. So, let's uh I'm just going to Tom, you you have some specific information that was requested of you in terms of changes that might be coming on phase five on this uh both what they are and what they might cost to retrofit. Is that the way you understood the request? Basically, two things. the disability at intersection section. So then there is an exhibit in your your packet. I went out physically measured the intersection site distance on phase three and four. I didn't I didn't find any inefficiencies with regard to ashtoe and those guidelines there. And that now when I say that that's not measuring from the stop. I did measure from stop and stop bar, but I measured in accordance with the ash requirement of 14 and a half feet behind the travel. That's where the the intersection site distance is. And just to explain what that means is like on a right-hand turn, you're trying to accelerate and keep ahead of traffic that's oncoming. You only have to worry about one lane. There's very little bit of traversing. when you're doing a left-hand turn, that that distance that's required for the intersection sight distance increases because you're traveling through one lane and so it's a little further in that acceleration state. So it just adds some distance and it's product of of speed, acceleration, and time. So on a left-hand turn at 35 miles an hour, the intersection site distance for left-hand turn is 390 ft. On a right hand turn, it's 330 ft. 335 ft and there's a calculation but everyone just uses chart right so those are rounded numbers but I didn't find any deficiencies like I say measuring from that that travel question then came up on is there any intersection site distance issues on the next phase that's coming in that one's a little more difficult there's undeveloped areas of the of the road there's there's a bit lacking and when I measured it from fire states There was some trailers and some some piping in the way. But what I found was that Par, excuse me, Nibbly Park Avenue at that intersection at 12 West, there's not the sight distance needed to make a left or right hand turn from the north side, but it it's blocked by trees. So I think it can be rectified by cutting the trees in a columner fashion just raising the the prelims up to what's required in in asho it's about 14 ft. I think our code also says there shouldn't be any branches or anything that that are below that 14t level. So by raising that up I believe we'll have that that intersection s distance at that intersection. So to answer that question, I didn't find any deficiencies. The other question was, well, let me let me ask on that if I may. Um, having been out to look at this, visited the site of course, and I've looked at this a bunch of times, watched traffic come and go. One of the things that I believe makes that intersection work to avoid, I'll define work as to avoid the right hook. and the the right hook of vehicles that turn right into bikes and into pedestrians as they turn off of 12 West into one of the cross streets, let's say Stone Stone Bridge or the the road to the east. Um, and and that was always one of my biggest concerns when I first saw this plan, uh, inherited this plan and I've come to like it is the pedestrians or bikes are protected out of traffic and then in traffic at the intersections and then out of traffic in the intersections. And so what the mountable curbs do is bring the vehicles so they're looking directly at the bikes and pedestrians. But it also means that according to Utah code, cars should be stopping at the stop line at the stop sign. And so are we deficient with partic in particular and maybe we need to go back out and look at it. There's a white fence, a white vinyl fence as you travel west would take you into Stonebridge, but west is running north and south. is do you think do did you look at that white wine fence? And if the answer is no, I mean, we can go out and look at it again in terms of sight distances on that white vinyl fence that's in the north uh east corner. I don't know. Can we pull up the parcel view or anything? Southeast. So, I actually created a love to be looking at that. Now it's going to be 10.3. Is that right? Yes. So can't really see it, but those measurements that are on there are from the south bar. So this is at least 2500 south. So, if you scroll through to some other pages and I included calculations because there's engineers on on the council and just thought I'd offer that information. So, this one here 2800 2,800. So, if you go down to 2980, that's the next one. Yeah. So, you're talking eastbound. I'm I'm talking if you are It's Nibbi Parkway, right? That turns into Stonebridge. If you go straight to the west, so if you're on 2980 headed west and you stop at the stop bar, can you see traffic coming from the north with the white vinyl fence or the south? Either direction. So yeah, I thought the north one was the worst, but we can talk about all of them, right? Okay. So with the see from the snow bar in the current position now remind you northbound traffic. We haven't improved that section of the road yet. So when we do this next phase everything's going to shift to the west. All the travel lane will shift to the west moving the curb and everything. And so what that'll do is increase that distance. So what I measured was at present $289 289 ft from the stop bar once you move 14 and 1/2 ft away from so you go through that negotiated space that distance increases and there's no we we have it's 289 28 289 two so I measured it twice once at once's at 261 feet and I might have misspelled Presently, if you stop at the stop bar, you can see 261 ft in the travel lane at its current location. Now, the 289 ft shifts that over to where this new travel lane will be at from the stop bar to where the new travel lane will be once we do the once we do the improvements in phase five. Yes. So, that's from the stop bar. Now move 1400 or 14 14 1/2 ft away from that travel lane. Now there's no distance violation. You can see that 395 ft. Is that the requirement? 395. 395 is for a left hand turn. So I guess you would be looking if you're traveling west making a left hand turn that distance is measured to the left on the page. If you make, excuse me, let's see. Yeah, left-hand turn that distance is measured left on the page. So on a right hand turn, it's 335 ft. So if you're turning right, be looking right on the on the screen. So remember, you look left to turn right. Yep. So that distance would is technically only need to be 335 ft there for Well, I appreciate that level of detail and I appreciate looking at it and I I'm I'm going to say that if we feel like there's some opakeness in that vinyl fence that there may be opportunity to even go beyond the standard And you know, I'll go talk to the land owner and say, "Look, let Nibbley City help you make your fence not quite so tall in terms of opacity." So, that might tricky. Um, the distance is measured at 3 and 1/2 ft above street level. Okay. So, then you have your curb and then any grade differential, there's 2% slope as you move toward that fence. So that might be a twoft fence if you want to actually clear that down two foot tall or move it further. The opacity. Yes. Right. I'm not talking about our fence to a two foot tall fence. I'm talking about making it so we can see through it. Great. And let's keep it on this this here. So I also want to point out in this case that the measurement between the the bowls on the plan it's 24 foot6. I think I measured it out in the field is 25 ft. So, it's a little bit wider. If you go further south to the intersections going into the Heritage Crossing, there's only 22 feet in there. So, it's much more narrow moving in and out of that subdivision Heritage Crossing. There's there's two drive axises there. So, there was also a question, can we move them? Can we make them shorter and things? So if we move them, it's going to encroach into that sidewalk. So we'd have to look at each one individually to see if it's encroaching too much into that sidewalk or what not. But it it is worth looking into. And and on that note, there was a question, how much would it cost to remove place? So I called the contractor that actually installed them to come and tear things out, move them, repour them shorter at 4 in. So on phase five, we we did make the shift. We moved them just slightly so they're more in line with the uh on the on the let's see the east side that was more in line with that that barrier wall. So we've kind of shifted them back. How much would we shift these if we made it like phase five horizontal shift? We could shift them halfway. So we'd have to move them 50% of the current width. So they would line up with the curb, the existing curb. So we would I don't know two or three feet or something. Yes. So to remove it be about 12 to $1,500. And to reinstall it was around $35 to $3,800. So if we just use some round numbers, you're $5500 to $6,000 per bulb. So you're looking at 25 to $30,000 per intersection. You're going to have to come back and restripe things, I'd imagine, on certain cases. So So I I believe those are the two main questions that were posed to staff. Is there any questions on what's been presented? Yes. I'm just saying it'd be about 25 to $30,000 per intersection change. And then that's considering that and looking at those costs. Don't go to the traffic and a traffic engineer that would evaluate the decrease in safety for bikes and pedestrians. I guess it would bring it up to whatever phase five is going to be anyway. So that's satisfactory. Okay. I answered my own question. Last question. One, one of the other discussion point was the wall. Could the wall be moved for more shoulder space? And that would take some serious redesign and it would be possible, but I believe and we had that discussion with the engineer and the engineer believes that that will reduce to eliminate the traffic calming and speeds of the of the vehicles. Now, some reason we had lots of discussion about speed limit on this road, and we in my head, we'd already increased the speed limit on this road to 35 mph. It is actually still posted at 25. It's 35 miles south of the 3200 South roundabout, which is where I think I confused myself. But regardless, the 85th percentile speed right now is 36 37 miles an hour. I think an amazing test would be for us to raise the speed limit to 35 and see if that number changes. That would tell us the effectiveness of that wall. And if we are truly calming traffic, it'll tell us the effectiveness of the totality of traffic. Yeah. You're saying if if speeds don't increase, then the wall is working. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's that would be a great test, right? If we post it at 35 and speeds don't go up, people are driving what's comfortable. They're not driving 5 miles to 10 miles an hour higher than the speed limit. What governs how fast you're driving? The the comfort rate you're driving or the white sign. Yeah. Well, I mean that would be a great test. I mean, I'm not I'm not saying one or the other. I'm saying it'd be a great test to see see if Yeah. So, so we talked about that and we decided we didn't want to raise that 35 until we got phase five down because that's why we hadn't increased that speed limit. So that was just a point I wanted to brief that fantastic if we could test that. That is another variable though because it's going to put more traffic and different drivers on that road. I mean this this road is going to connect high road to the airport. So that introduces another variable in our control experience. So maybe we check it to 35 raise speed to the final intend to 35. Just enough time to collect the statistics before phase five opens and then we have and then we have another what's what is it after phase five opens and the road's complete. Why not? It's just 10 signs. Yeah, we'll do whatever you want. It's a switch. Just we will be starting construction soon. We're trying to finalize that. They're supposed to be started now, but they're having some issues with subcontractors. So, we're hoping in the next two weeks. So, I don't know how accurate the speed data would be if we have construction going on. But yeah, we we can because phase five is not just the final link, it's also work to sell the stone bridge. So, Justin mentioned we we collect a speed data. We've done it twice. once fairly new after it was installed just to see what what was happening. I think it was a month later. We did another one within the last month or so and it relatively hasn't changed but I think there was a few more cars. People are getting used to travel though. Um Levi told me a story that you he presented this project to some planners that are breakfast. I didn't know you guys had breakfast all that's scary. But um there are already but there there are there was conversation like we can't wait to go this I'm going to use this to get to north. So I think opening it up we'll see a much different picture than what we're seeing. Yeah the traffic counts are obviously going to go up. This is a arterial road. That's why the CMO and I recall this is a few years ago where can't remember somewhere down south in Salt Lake area, maybe Davis County, but they actually paint. So we we created chicanees or artificial curvature in the road using these barriers. They tried it with paint down in Salt Lake and I remember the news stories was like they they had a helicopter and people were just going straight right through all the painted lines rather than following the paint. So I don't know how effective it would be like Justin said by moving that that wall but we can try it necessary. I'm talking too much. I'll let you all go ahead Justin. Just one more for me. Has anybody had the opportunity to go travel fifth north into Logan? So, so they have implemented this kind of situation. Now, they I apologize. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but uh they did I did just get from them their costs to put that in. And what that was is really basically a raised curb with those white plastic candlesticks on top. Looks a lot better, I feel like. unsure of the effectiveness. I would think it would be similarly effective, but maybe not quite as effective. I think their road is posted. What's that posted? 25 25. It's a different context, too. It's residential. It's very driveway. Well, definitely go look at that when you got a few minutes. take a look at what they're talking, you know, we can learn what we can from way less parking. Say it again. There's way less parking. So at the U at the planners associate me I had the opportunity to go on a bus tour and I presented on a couple of of alternative transportation projects. One was center street the other was 1200 but when we were in the bus driving past this 500 north there was cars traveling in that bike lane on the other side of the curve. I don't know. They're probably just still adjusting, but they put they put in do not enter signs on those. Yeah, there wasn't any paint at the time either. I appreciate you bringing this through. I know a lot of us councils had comments from the people that live there. So, I know for myself I'll report back what we've had here. That's what we asked you to do with the findings. just show them some of your here. But the only thing like on the side of plan I went with one and they did have that stone bridge sign that's kind of there too. You have the fence and then you have the sign that's bumped out a little bit more. So look at see how the sign plays effect. And then also the the trees are are good now, but I'm sure we'll keep an eye on make sure that they're they're branches are cut tall enough to keep as much visible as we can. Are any of the visibility concerns part of the result of us letting people off the hook on that rideway on 12 West? What do you mean? A great question. I'm really good at picking scabs or learning from experience. What do you mean? So, we as a council, we have a right of way. We let people in quotes on that right away and we let it become permanent. Well, we have we had rightway. If I clarify a little bit, we had a rightway and then we had easement, right? It was like a landscape that was not supposed to have fences or things in it. And just time went on and time went on. We didn't do a good job of enforcing that. Some people encroached on it and it was less than a year ago. We just said, "Oh, I guess we're that's gone." And we abandoned the game. So no good deed goes unpunished bad goes un Yeah. So this reference photos and thoughts that I sent out but it's got photos of some of the places we're talking I think I think everyone here um I say after that uh What did you say? I just went took pictures of what what the view from my vehicle like in all directions. Oh, uh, yeah. And then I just kind of made you and then uh city staff was really great about working me and basically answering some of the same questions that Tom was now presented in. So you refer to the document does that show where the rightway line is so we can just say hey these are actually not in the right place. So the RW there's a small RW kind of a darker line. That's the ride of voice. I think it was a 10 foot if I remember right. Land landscape 10 foot eastman on top of that. Yeah. So it should be 10 ft behind behind that even or a chunk. And I just want to clarify that's just for a a small section of this road. Not not not the whole thing. It's just the north end. North end on one side of the road. So, not not too long ago. Okay. I can check. Um the reason I ask is I think it was 2018 is when we started requiring fence permits. So if it came in before that then Yeah, there's there's a good chance it does. I I think I think it's worth this is a bigger discussion, but just since it is brought up with all the fences, I think it's worth looking at our fence standards again. And so we we we allow fences outside of the the or 6ft tall fences that is outside of the 40ft uh clear view triangle. I'm not sure if that's quite adequate. Uh I I I just permitted a fence uh in a new subdivision that their backyard backs on to 3200 south that's 6 ft and it doesn't. It's like it looks like a visibility problem. It it meets that 40 foot clear view triangle. So it might be worth looking at that again. While we're doing it, let's look at where the right angle of the triangle is. Yeah. Is that at rightway? Because we do things like put sidewalks in the right of way and we put bike paths in the right of way or is that from vehicle lane vehicle lane and and you know this intersection needs people to stop at the stop line as state code requires. It's at the roadway. So, it doesn't count the park strip and the sidewalk. That's the way it's written. So, so that's why it's almost all these fences are allowed because when you take into account the park strip and the the sidewalk and the curvature of the road and everything, you come out. Uh there's not very many where that's even a factor. There's not very many. I agree. But we're not protecting pedestrians, but that doesn't Yeah. That doesn't mean it's it's right. I'm just saying there's not very many that are against the city code. We're not protecting coded, right? Yeah, there's some visibility issues for sure with those fences. No, I saw Lehi's version of West Co. baseball complex. And there were a couple of differences, notable differences, and they had instead of going with the jersey barrier to separate vehicle traffic from bicycle traffic, they had candlesticks. So, I'm talking about white is that you guys know what I mean by that? I didn't know what to call them, but that term seems descriptive. And that wasn't too bad. But they also didn't have mountable curves. They had paint to show where the where we would where we put a mountable curve and then they had candlesticks on the edge of that mountable curve. And frankly, I did not like it at all because I was just confused by the candlesticks. There's it was like a forest of candlesticks poking up and I you know I would I'm not sure I want to drive my car over those candlesticks. I've driven my car my trepid over the mountable curbs and I didn't have to bring it to you to get fixed by the way. You fix those? No, I didn't have to get it fixed. Were those candlesticks hired? They were about 4 feet tall. Yeah. Is that about what a candlestick is? They they have different sizes 32 36 and 40 is about four feet. But they they didn't well they didn't delineate the curb where they're trying you know where the intent is to square up vehicle traffic with bike and pedestrian traffic and it was confusing to me but I know our solution is confusing you know to some extent as well. Yeah, I like Grand Avenue as another example and they what they've done is they've put like a strip essentially between they kind of switches so you put down that road but I like to one thing that I sent for workshop and this I thought a lot about in preparation for this meeting was initially The proposal for the resolution was to year after week five opened. We adjusted that if I was going in motion in the meeting to just say opens. Uh so that would put us on time this October. It was for a year from when we passed resolution. Oh, that's right. says, "Well, that was still um I think that's something that council should consider. That's still a timeline for potentially not forcing our hand, but kind of coming to a conclusion or I guess it's just a timeline when we have a next workshop. There's nothing restricting us or making changes that are minor or having more of these workshops. encourages that in ordinance of the resolution. But uh I think it's something to consider. Um I think that the opening and the action as has been stated tonight is going to give that road a very different traffic feel than what we've had so far. So I don't have suggestions on that. I just think it's something to continue to think about. And and you know, the resolution to me was in October, we're committed to seeing how this goes for a year and have workshops and have opportunities for public input. But that's my marching orders to put this back on the agenda in October of this year. Now, if the council wants to abandon that resolution and put it on the calendar sooner, later or in between, I mean, I will put it on for October. And if the council tells me we want to abandon that resolution and replace it with a different one, you know, that's all up to the council. Well, I think this is good. I think we just try to take the input from our the people that are talking to us and show them that we're listening and then try to we know it's not perfect, but we know it's it's working to some degree. We just want a lot of them said, "Well, we should tear it out." This is tear out when we get hurt. I mean, the I'll I'll get this back and show them the the new design one is in October and it's going to be different. Well, so I mean back to Nathan's point, would modifying the ones at 298 and 12 West, would modifying it to move them and shorten them be considered a minor modification or a major modification? This something want to try and do before October or I I guarantee council can't spend $25,000 section. Yeah. Yes. That's that the minor modification was to allow staff to make minor modifications without coming back to council. Okay. I understand. That's not a minor modification being considered major. Yeah. You're going to have to pay for it. Yeah. I just wanted wanted to make sure clear what our definitions were. Minor or major modifications. Yeah. I think that question came up before and I said for all the discussion here I'm pretty sure staff is not going to go out on a limb and then take the saw and cut it off at the edge of the tree. They'll come back to you for the decision. But if I was you okay so there's no votes tonight on the agenda for votes. Uh, anything else to add anywhere staff council? Okay, thanks for that. Thanks for talking to our residents. Thanks for staying in touch and uh we'll uh we'll keep looking at it. Okay, thanks. Okay, next we have a discussion consideration. This is ordinance 2512. This is a reszone partial parcel at 1500 west and 2600 south from R2 to commercial. So this is on our agenda because it's been on the agenda for a while and council asked made a motion by motion and by vote asked for this to come back to tonight's agenda. Is there any new information from staff? Yeah, I just wanted to report on uh the it was asked about the potential tax implications of a re the reszone and um our staff reached out to the cash county assessor's office and they they just stated that there's there's no tax implications associated with the reszone if if the land stays in green belt. um in in a lot of cases commercial land is valued higher but if it stays in green belt then then there aren't those tax implications. Uh so that's the only new information we we did just want to restate that the the planning commission and staff's recommendation was to approve this ordinance which would reszone this property from R2 to commercial. Uh this is consistent with with the city's uh future land use map and and the mass master master plan and would be in line and in support of the general plan. Alice proponent. Yeah, Joel's online too. Joel, just so you know, Joel Nelson is also online. Um, a few things come back more. Um, there is no plan. We've we've lost the developer. It's gone. We thought we could go back and revisit that, but it hasn't developed. So there's no there's no plan. There is nothing there any longer. So I went back to look more some of the information that was relayed to me. I have not thought the developer, but the comment that was sent back to me from a broker was he just said the city's not ready for a development. but one of the things over here we talk about and I don't be an expert on this more financing some of the the stipulations that were in there. So we went back and one of the meetings we had about eight months ago talked about the stipulation on residential commercial. And so one of the comments that came back from staff last me was we need all the commercial we can give. Um and you know the comment that came back to me was how many commercial developments have been developed and I have to understand all the inner workings of all these should go on. I don't know the answer to that. But there's a question that came up in there. See, went back. Well, it says in Utah, municipalities that adopt TI districts can generate at least $100,000 in new revenue through the district must allocate at least 20% of the funds for affordable housing, development, construction, or retention. 20% So I'm trying to get an answer on that is that what the issue but I know it was discussed because we discussed it you know few times on that that the issues of the t reimbursement will be dependent on what the residential part so we went back and looked at we have 55 acres left in there and what the proposal that the staff has put forward is that we would leave ourselves over 26% % residential and there's 56% of this commercial which we almost have 30 acres of commercial which will put about it's actually almost 60% of that remain property is commercial so I tried to go back and get an answer on this I don't have all the answers on them yet because I'm not a specialist but the issue in here was if the developer goes in and use uses tip funds thinking he's going to reimburse but he doesn't get that 20%. or exceeds that threshold, he doesn't get reimbursed for that money. You know, he says, well, then they face an audit or something like that. So, I think the issue in here is there is no plan here. And just to say, let's go out and throw something commercial says for the first when they're talking about tickets. So the concern here and I I'd like to get more information on I don't have they haven't responded back to me but if 20% of the funds you go you go through that whole district there is a lot of area for residential it's basically our fees and so the issue in there is if we have 20% of funds for affordable housing you there's only so much you can put into roads and things like that. We're not going to make up the cost. I I mean, basically puts a ceiling on what the tip funds can be for the commercial development. That's the problem. And so when they come back to me and say, well, X number of doubles in TI funds, that's really not in my will house because that's more between you and the commercial developer. But if he's looking at those numbers saying, "Well, I'm going to spend X number of dollars and I'm going to get X minus Y, ZX, you know, all these other numbers. I can't make that up. So, I think let me let me save you some trouble here." Okay. Can I jump in because we went through this extensively when the Malo CRA documents were adopted and it's who is it at? Lewis Roberts Young. Jason Burningham. Jason Burningham. should talk to him. Let me finish and then I'll give this to me that CRA was formed and in place before the 20% for affordable housing requirement was enacted by the legislature. So we're we're talking about apples and here you're looking at current code but that's not the code to look at. Go ahead. and the documents are going to be updated before the 20th. And so I went back and looked at so I don't know what this is and like said we need to look at this. But the issue here is to say well we got to get commercial commercial and we don't even know what's going to go in there or anything like that. I wish for life to have a plan before the plan that this was based on on he's left. He's gone on. We didn't have a plan. You submitted the application, correct? Back in January. We had 90 days and gave us 90 days on. And so to go back and say, well, you can change this over to commercial limits our ability going forward and what we can do. So that's the concern there. You can do whatever you want decisions based on but the concern we have is if the city's making decisions for us then we have to step away and say what's what are we really doing here at can we work together and have a partnership and remember when we first annexed into nibbly city the council was great says gosh we can work on this we can do things we can do some great things and now we're being told from the staff But hey, we want it this way and there's no collaboration. There's no discussion and there's several issues that have gone on and they're going to get into. But we would like a collaboration. We would not like I mean, how would you feel if you were us and have me tell you what you're going to do? Weren't you the wanted commercial first place? Pardon me. Didn't you submit the application to make it commercial? That's what I'm confused about. January because when they submitted the plan, they said, "We'd like to hurry and get this into commercial." But but because you changed your mind now supposed to make that. It wasn't me. It was the developer. Because the group that you're working with has changed their mind now. We're not supposed to change to commercial. Well, there's no purpose for us because we don't have to be planning doing anything. Thanks. Yeah. So, this is very simple question. Does the proponent still want commercial? That's the first question. The uh other part of that question was that we didn't know. We thought it was maybe because of tax implications, but it sounds like the proponent is more concerned about just what the zoning is because they don't I think that it's important for the proponent to answer the question, do you want it to be commercial and to explain why the application uh other than the developer doesn't have a plan anymore? Because there's still benefit to entitling the property from what it currently is zoned. And if the proponent is not interested in those two things just like a simple yes or no. So there's two parts to that. Is there a tax implication? Not right. But there can be for us going forward. It can impact our ability to negotiate other things because what goes on here Nathan is people think this is a one-dimensional negotiation. You go in say okay we got this and it's that. It's not that way. when you deal with commercial negotiations and I mean my family becomes a there's multiple commercial developments that they say it's never one multiple issues that go on that before you sh it takes that right away from a property shade any possibility that's the concern so you're right is there no tax implication possibly for writing a couple but Can there be? Sure. There can be for us. So, what I'm hearing is you do not want it to be commercial anymore. You'd like to withdraw the application that you've already paid for. Well, I think the the issue we'd like to do is withdraw and see what plans we can put together because excuse me, what we can do with it and what opportunities we have and then come back to campus and say this is what we have. just to say well we got this as commercial you know so so on our future land use and that I mean this is an area that we are okay with being commercial and so it's one that we as a city the residents of wouldn't mind it being commercial you applied and if you no longer want it I just need you to say we don't want to be commercial because what happens then is that you're going to have to reapply if you're steal the property Sure. So I just want to know if that's what you want just withdraw for the time being and come back and sit down with people who will come through and and we have we sit down and say this is what we have but right now we plan I mean plan is gone. So I mean is what would you do in our spot? I I don't I don't know. I I don't know what's going on. I my my job here is to decide whether it's commercial because you asked for it and so I'm just asking to it seems like there's changes and you maybe not want it anymore but I haven't why that there's no plan is okay. I'm not okay let me let me give you an illustration. So when the negotiates they come up there's when you do get negotiate who's done the commercial development here. You mean like which of us have done that like okay norm has so probably the issues in there when you go negotiating there's several different points you have to negotiate on and try to get them to take care of it. It's not like we can sell the house or buy the house. There's several issues in there that you have to deal with and things like that. And there's several points in there that you negotiate and you can put yourself into a bad situation if you don't be careful with. So there a lot of concerns on our part that we have to be careful with for now. you can do whatever you want. But for us, I mean, we appreciate you say, but you know, they changed and 5 years ago when I said things will change and we just have to work with those things and change. It's not because of me, you know, you have developers, you know, come in with a plan to go, you know, things change. And so the biggest issue is is how what do you do going forward? Well, we have to work together if we're going to make this work. And obviously it wasn't you or me that changed this thing but they left. So the question is what do we do going forward now? So with that I mean it changed. We don't you know they told us to get it like the change to commercial in January. We tried to really get things taken fair. We didn't meet their time. Now let's let's be clear on two points. So this council knows that commercial developer. This city worked with that commercial developer. That commercial developer presented us a concept plan. That commercial developer modified the con the concept plan to align to our master road plan. Ended up with what he said in session, a better plan. We approved that concept plan. Um, I'm I'm and I I won't speculate even after having spoken at length with that commercial developer exactly what did happen, but I think what's on the record is we worked really well with that guy and he's not hearing. So, let me understand why it's a liability to you to have the land entitled to commercial development if you want to do commercial development there to match with the rest of the property. When we asked you that question when you were here last time, you said it was because you didn't want to pay the 8 to10,000 of back green belt taxes. Now the assessor has answered that question apparently not only for us but also for you because she included in her email. Gee, the landowner just asked me that same question which was after our last meeting. The assessor called me on it and she says what are they talking about this property? I'm like I think we're the property owners. So um that is true. She called me because we were talking about several other things. It wasn't just this issue, but she brought it up and said, "Yeah, that's that's true. It depends on what you do afterwards." But the issue in here, one of the big issues we go into these negotiations separate points. Yes. Is it zoned for whatever the purpose? Is that definitely going to be commercial? Well, we think so. But do we guarantee it? If it's zoned for commercial, we can say yes. Otherwise, it's a maybe. I have a commercial development and and the commercial development is I'm interested in development. Is that zone for commercial? If we follow through with the reszone, the answer is yes. The answer is no. But there are some principles of my understanding that I'm trying to get your insight from. From my understanding, anytime I own property that is agricultural or maybe an R2 like this one is, which is not a whole lot of value, square acreage, and I entitled it to something like a mixed zone or a commercial industrial, whether I build it, whether I sell it to someone else, I've done the hard work, which is what you've done. You've put in all this work. you've made the application, you've paid for the application, you'll get it entitled. So now the value generally increases no matter what because now the next person or whoever comes after or wants to do something with it doesn't have to do all that work. It's already done. So what I'm trying to find out is do you want this property entitled I just want it to stay R2 city. So if there's another zone you'd like, we can talk. But like I just need to know if you want it in time. Yeah. The only concern is I don't want to get going down the road negotiations. So if you feel like you need to go ahead and do commercial due, our preference is is the law not. But we'll leave it to council. Leave it to you what you want to do. You're right. Different challenges with this. I hate it. I hate it. I'd like to throw the whole theme in the motion and walk away. Tell me what hold off means. Does that mean that if and when you decide it should not be R2 that you would submit a different and new reszone application? Well, we would do that and you know the new plat. Sure. No plats. We don't plats are not part of the rezone application. Think about But we want to have something solid. I would like Is that what is that what hold off means? Define. We would like to hold off forever. That's that was our discussion last continued continued continued continued. Put it on What's the best thing for you guys? I feel for you. The best thing for me is I want to do with property, but it feels like you're not really sure, right? And I want to I want to follow our master plans and our general plans. And I feel like you asked me if it were me, what would I do? If it were me and I owned it and I felt like I was I would beat up over this and I was done with it, I would entitle this property and I'd start to try to sell someone else. Sorry. So, right. So, that that's that's what I would do. So, I'm trying to understand it seems like you have a different idea or a plan. Uh, and I want to do the best I can of what you'd like to do, but it's I mean, it's just we thought we were going to do it once, didn't we? We thought we were going to do twice, didn't it's just frustrating because you end up just getting soaked and you know, it's it's it's a challenge. How how's the zoning that you currently have impacted you negatively? That would help me understand why an opt. Well, what your biggest concern is coming down the road if you have some other opportunity that you can go in there and do it. Are you going to put yourself into a worse situation like like we have done with the like industrial or something? Okay, that's helpful. Thank you. So, what's the contract? You don't have to tell me this. If you're talking to a commercial developer and you're under contract with the commercial developer, was there a contingency to have the land get reszoned to commercial before the sale would take place or was the commercial developer willing to buy this while it was still R2? There was stipulation on both sides. So it varied according to what that was a lot of. So if we make a motion to deny, then he can just reapply. I guess we have to say it. It's either a second or no second. Yes. Do you want to talk about it? Second. Okay. We have a motion and a second to deny the uh application for resone from R2 to commercial. Okay. Um Okay. So by denying that it's just going to stay as it is R2 and if the opponent wants to change they'll have to submit a application. Correct. And without a unanimous vote that motion will fail. And without a unanimous vote to grant the result, that motion will move, which means it will still be on a future agenda. Excuse me. 3 hours. Yeah, I don't blame you for that. No. Yeah. Sorry. I mean this was you want me personally I would want commercial to do it but sell it in the future plan and that's what it's going to be sold as commercial but you're the one that presented this you're the one that's requesting it that's why that's why I just denied but he won't we've talked about this problem for a long time it all felt the alarm forever just puts us back but he because you can't you can't build anything on a whale I think to no that's not allowed that's not allowed in not several homes want to help and I feel the only like I feel like I can help right now for the reason. I think it gives guidance. I think it gives lanes to stay in. If there's a different zone that they're interested in that is currently on our books, I'm willing to entertain that to you. But this property is not going to stay R2. So why keep the can? Let's The next meeting we have with the ring that you can sit down. I would love to. It's a learning process. hospitals are just they're a lot. It's hard. It's not easy. Like I wish there was a grocery store there. Say yes. No, I we're voting on the motion to disc in that case. So cities have the authority, the legislative authority to zone land. Yeah. It's not a question of do we have the authority? So is that a yes? You're ready to vote. Okay. Is there an objection to vote? Okay. Let's uh call the roll, please. The motion is to deny the reszone from R2A to commercial. Council member motion in favor. Council member oppos. So the motion fails to achieve the quorum of the council. We'll talk about it again. Is there a new motion? Yeah. If it dies, can you have a new motion? Um, I think that I think that if we if a motion fail Yes, you can make a new motion. You can make a new motion if if the motion fails for lack of a council. So is it's just a new motion not just a motion right a new motion as long as it's still on this but I don't know I mean motion would say to continue this is the decision on the item agenda and if there's no new if there's no other motion on this agenda item it just comes comes back goes away. Oh, it fails. So that means it no which is no decision. The decision that has been made is no decision. So the motion to deny failed. So that can go away or a new motion can be made because that that motion's failed. So, a new motion can be made on Zoom. That's correct. I'm just wondering how productive that is. Can Can I just throw out an idea that was made and I have not thought this through? I'm not. Would it be acceptable to the council and the proponent to reszone it back to a because that would ensure you that they're not going to come build a couple houses on it and still leaves the option open to not look tie him into the commercial restrictions. Just throwing it out there. You guys think about it.

now's one day. property there that help you negotiate with a commercial developer. Doesn't make it less. I just want to leave the thing alone out. I think I think you're worn out there. I mean, it's just I wish there were and I apologize. address. I apologize, Nathan. A parent, I apologize. I mean, this has been It's been hard. I hate it. My wife hate it. And I just wish I had, you know, some support, you know, and just say, "Let's work together and collaborate." But it is together. But it hasn't happened to me. I just, you know, everyone says, "Well, you're too nice. You listen to too many people." I said, "Well, is that a good thing or a bad thing?" I like to hear ideas. I like to hear your ideas, but I also like people to be honest with me. Tell me simple challenges we face. So anyway, I mean, I appreciate it. I do and I don't need to take your time cuz you got banned. I see one goose list. I'm going to move on to the next agenda item unless somebody does. I'll make substitute. Well, substitute. I'll make a motion taken from you. No, all that's not the motion continue. Motion to continue just specified.

Wait. So are you putting a date on your continue? So continue until our next meeting is the motion. Once twice motion dies for life. Can I make a different motion? Sure. Let's do make a motion to resend the parcel to instead of R2. So the motion I'm sorry is there a second. You want me to repeat it? I'll repeat it. The motion is to reszone from R2 to A which is appropriate. We've done all the public hearings. We've done all the stuff. Once it's on the agenda, even if we've published and publicized it's from R2 to commercial, the council can't in the same meeting say R2 to A or R2 to industrial, R2 to whatever they want. So the motion is to reszone from R2 to A. Six seconds. We can just discuss this. we can now talk about. Yeah. So I think after hearing what the proponent has to say tonight sounds like to go with the original application for the reason stated um the city has in my opinion do our use map all that kind of stuff has no interest in this being too. So, as the mayor turn said, I think it's a great idea, but Justin, if we put this in egg, it's a holding spot allows the property to decide what they want to do. So, instead of seven, how many acres is this parcel? 7 and 12 change the minimum five acre. So, that's why I think it's a good idea to not keep it on agenda. Yeah. I don't want to talk about in three weeks. If he does the board in three weeks, then we'll stop. Yeah. I think it's good. No. I mean, yes. Yes. There's something to change if you want. Okay. Hey, Al. This is Joel. Joel. Go ahead, Joel. Uh, is this something you and I we need to decide discuss before we I mean, I had no idea going to add was even going to be mentioned. Um, and I'm not sure if we want to commit tonight. Uh, but I just don't know enough to know the pros or cons by by that proposal. Yeah. Um, you don't have to answer Joel's question for all of us. You can get on your phone and talk to him if you'd like. We can go for a recess or something. trash. I mean, Joel asked you a question, not a question. Okay. All right. We're gonna recess until Give me a call.

sort of problem anyway like that's why I wouldn't put any before you start singing your face to sit break out. Just call on the weekend to report yourself. So, we're back in session. Motion before the council is to reszone this partial from R2 to agriculture. discussion. Uh, seeing no discussion, SH, will you call the roll, please? in favor. Motion passes with a required vote of three votes. So, we'll see you when you want to do something with it. Thanks, Al. Thank you. Next agenda item is to another reszone. This is item 12 parcels as listed. This would be to go from uh this is requested by the proponents to go from commercial to industrial. Thanks uh mayor and council. Joel, thanks for tuning in and helping us out. Thank you. Go ahead, Levi. All right. Uh so this this uh reszone application was a it was a joint application with two property owners that that represent uh three different properties. Uh just just to orient you this is um kind of on the on the top of the screen that's Nibbly Park Avenue and um Heritage Drive is to to the left of the screen. So, it's uh Mount Mountain Mountain View Machine and Welding and Mountain Mount Majestic Stage. Um I I know I misstated that. I'm sorry it's late. I butchered it. I'm sorry. Um please correct me on that. What? Majestic Majestic Mountain Sage. Sorry. Yeah. Maj Majestic Mountain Sage are are located um on two of the parcels and then uh the the third parcel is is uh vacant currently. So they're they're proposing and actually it's not from R2 to commercial. I'm that that I don't know how that got mixed up on there either because it is it is from commercial to industrial. Um I think when I converted it over that changed. So uh what the need for the proposed zone ch change is to align the zoning with the current land usage. This is from the applicant by the way from from their application. What will the public benefit be if the zone change is granted to ensure the ongoing economic vi viability of the businesses located in the proposed area? The businesses affected, employ approximately 30 people and provide products, services, and support for customers both locally, regionally, and nationally. Um, how does the proposal comply with the goals and policies of the Navy City general plan? The proposed zoning change strengthens the economic value of the area and um, please explain how the anticipated use is appropriate for the surrounding area. The proposed zoning change will not impact the surrounding area. The current use will not change because of the reszone. the current usage has has had no known complaints from the adjacent property owners. So just to give you a little bit more context um so again the um the existing site and I I already mentioned with the businesses that are there it's surrounded by a commercial zone um to the to the east or sorry to the west and and to the north and then an RM zone to the south and an R2A way and plan unit development at you know town home development just to the east of the site there you look at our general plan our future land use map designates this area as commercial uh which is is consistent with the existing zoning on on the site uh the land use goal one is encouraged development that respects and preserves the character of the city and provides a mix of commercial residential housing and some light industrial uses is carefully planned for growth within the city, ensuring that development occurs in suitable locations and can be efficiently served over the long term. Land use goal two is to guide land use and growth decisions through application of the general plan. The future land use map and relevant goals, principles, and projects and commercial and economic development goal to create and maintain sustainable economic base for NibLy City that will provide tax revenues and increase local employment and convenience of shopping. So, just a handful of goals that that are relevant to this application. Um, the the staff and the planning commission's recommendation is to deny this this uh this request of this ordinance to to change the zoning in this area from commercial to industrial uh for with with the following findings. that the industrial zone designation isn't compatible with with the commercial designation of the adopted future land use map. And just considering the the surrounding land uses in particular, the the residential uses, both both the existing and the zoned residential uses. The the the commercial zoning would would provide for allow for uses that are more compatible with the surrounding uses than than an industrial zone would. Uh the there was a public hearing held at uh the planning commission meeting. There were two two written comments that were submitted and just just to summarize they they they were from people that uh residents in in the uh residential area that were concerned with the impacts of the industrial uses that could come with with the industrial zone. just just in short that's that's what they expressed. Um but but this is this is the recommendation. uh I'll le el elaborate a little bit more and this does play into I I believe the the reason for the reason particular and and again this was a joint application but Mountain View Machine Welding uh they a few months ago they did submit a uh a a business license for another uh entity that that really is kind of a breakoff top of their existing business of of a of a machine shop. And in error, I I did deny that application. Um, it should have been approved in the first place. I denied it because it wasn't an allowed use and misinterpreted the non-conforming use clause of that. So, in part, that led to this application. I know there's other reasons for it. you know, it it does include these other parcels as well, and they don't they don't have that same same issue. Uh the the applicant in the planning commission meeting did did mention that they're looking at potentially selling it and that there's more opportunities with the industrial use, but I just wanted to acknowledge that um that that uh business license application has been approved since that time since we've kind of identified that error. But uh just wanted to to acknowledge that. But just in general looking at the zoning, the the reszone and in isolation it and and the the context of the area uh it's it's staffs and and planning commission's recommendation uh to deny it and keep this as as commercial zoning. There's also uh I may maybe I'll provide a little bit more background as well since I I didn't include it on on the slides here, but they these businesses have have been approved. They've gone through, you know, conditional use permit as well as um site plan approval for for these buildings. And, you know, they've they've been in place for close to 20 years. Uh it appears that at some point that you know through amendments of the land use chart that although they were allowed uses at at one point there they are no longer allowed uses. We we haven't pinpointed exactly when that happens. We change our land use chart a lot. We just know they were they were permitted. They were allowed by the council and the planning commission at the time. uh now they're not allowed uh or well not they the the machine shop in particular is is is a legally um non-conforming use in the in that area so felt that was pertinent to the the consideration as well but we I I can tell you that they approved it right the changes so that it's now nonform it's legally non. Thank you. Um should we address anything that uh Tina mentioned to us in the in the public comment? Tina, would you like us to address any of that? I mean, I I'll just say this that um we take public comment and we don't know what the public comment is going to be and so we have no rebuttal at the public hearing for public comment. And you make great points about rats and lack of rats and everything else, but you know, someone could stand up and say that we don't could say any silly thing they want. And I would put that comment um as one that I would not worry about rats because of a change of zone, but we have no rebuttal for that in the public hearing. It would have been nice to have someone say that is a nonapplicable thing for us to consider tonight, but they didn't. It was these are the written complaints and so what do I have to go on? I have only the my rebuttal to it. It's you can't spread misinformation and think it's okay. Legitimately, what we're looking at does not attract rats. I agree with you. And they don't eat metal. I agree with you. And I'm not sure what the planning commission was thinking when they made their vote one way or another on rats because it never it never occurred to anybody to say, you know what, rat comment, I'm throwing out because it doesn't apply. The sound component doesn't apply. You cannot set your watch by the sounds over there except maybe the school. Well, my guess is the playing she did not use those or talk about that in my interpretation, but well said. Okay. Um either so you've heard Levi's presentation. We're happy to hear you as proponents and then we probably have some questions for you and you can stick around and be part of that discussion. Of course, I do thank Levi for giving the reason why this res was made is because he did tell Jason that he couldn't have the additional business license for his pack rifle that he has done since from the time that he moved into that facility. So he was told that the only way that he could get that business license was to do a reason to industrial. Jason approached me and I also looked at it because I'm getting ready to retire and sell part of that land. I had been approached by somebody that would like to have part of that as industrial. At the time all this zone was created, it was a commercial/industrial zone. And unfortunately, we haven't been able to get to the ordinances where that changed because unfortunately it's not online. And I'm still waiting for my um grandma uh report on those. So I I don't know when or where it changed, but it did change from an acceptable use to now something that isn't. The only reason that Jason is because he was a pre-existing use and was grandfathered in. So at one point it was a great idea for it to be industrial. And that is part of the reason that I would like to uh continue to have it that way. As I said, I've been approached by a business that would like to build a machine shop very similar to um mountain machine. And well um the problem that we have is that we have limited industrial space in Nibi. We have exactly three locations. E USA, Logan Coach, and everything around the Maloof CR. That's it. So, two of those they're developed out. So, there's no development there. The third spot has exactly one owner that controls all the development. The business owner that would like to buy mine and move his business there is currently in the MUOF CRA and he's being held over a barrel and he would like to remain in Nibi. He would like to have his eight employees at that particular facility continue to remain in Nibwe with the rest of his other operations. So, we got that reason of why I'd like to have this zone as industrial uh for that lot. It would give a business owner that's currently in Nibbi and is looking at having to move remain in Nibbi. I think that anybody that would come over and stand in that vacant lot. I would dare say that the noises that you will find are not the machine shop somewhat the standard shipping because they do move a lot of trucks through. But the two noisiest operations there are the school and the animal hospital. Other than those, I don't think you would even know that there was a machine shop there. I think that having the option as an industrial still gives the city plenty of control because every single use that is designed or designated under the current zoning plan under um industrial. Every single use that isn't already permitted under commercial, everything else that is strictly industrial still requires a conditional use per. So the zoning planning and zoning was concerned because they were afraid they were giving up control and didn't know what was going to happen in the future. Well, we also kind of lost control when the city changed the game rules underneath property owners there and reszoned it as a commercial without the commercial/industrial. And now we'd like to reclaim some of that. The city's going to still have their control over what happens there because there's still the conditional use permitting process, but opening that up gives me more opportunities to sell that property to somebody that is going to develop it into something that brings an economic value into Midway. Thank you. Yeah, thanks. So, can I ask a couple of questions? Absolutely. Thank you. So, the state has changed what a conditional use permit means. It's not that we can say yes or no. It's that it is a permitted use and the city can impose conditions that reasonably limit the impact. But you can't make conditions up. they have to be codified somewhere in the ordinance. So you can't say well um we'll allow this conditional use permit but you can't expel noise or light above some decibel level or some lumen level unless it's already codified. We used to think of even in my planning and zoning days a conditional use was well maybe we'll say yes and maybe we'll say no. That's not the case anymore. The case is it's a permitted use with the city able to impose reasonable conditions that exist in code um that would mitigate the use. Does that make sense? So, does this mean that the current land use guides that are on the city's page are incomplete as marking all these as conditional permitted? No. It means that they are permitted with conditions that are codified somewhere in ordinance. It doesn't mean it might be permitted, it might not be permitted. Conditional use means it's permitted with conditions. In other words, we don't get to pick and choose. We have to follow our ordinance of whether it meets the conditions. That makes sense. or or okay we get to impose conditions to mitigate the doesn't mean we we can say no conditionally it's conditional we can say no it's not a conditional approval it's an approval with mitigating conditions and and I know that's a lot to swallow it's it's it's it's a slight change in words but we've wrestled with that you know um if if uh someone in the industrial zone. You're asking for an industrial zone um um a a reszone to industrial someone came in and said, "I want to salvage. I want a junkyard on that piece of property." We can't say no. We can say yes with these mitigating conditions that are somewhere codified in our ordinance somewhere. So conditional uses aren't really maybe yes, maybe no. They're yes with conditions. Okay. How are these two businesses that already exist in how are their conditional use permits currently? probably what you were saying because they have established that use when it was permitted and it may have been a conditional use that was permitted with conditions. I don't know. It doesn't really matter. But then it's not that they were reszoned to something else, but the applicable zoning regulations associated with the zone that they were and still a part of changed underneath them after they had establish that use. And that's what we call con uh legally nonconforming. A vernacular that's used more often is grandfathering. They established the use, we change the rules. We can't make them keep up with our rule changes. They can continue, and that's what Levi explained, they can continue the established use that was legal at the time that they established it. And we when when we made it illegal, that only affects new businesses moving forward, right? And and what I guess the the error I had made is I based on the research and I you know I did a lot of research on it but came to the wrong conclusion. I I thought it was if it was a different business then they are not allowed. It's not the business, it's the use. So if it's the same use category, you know, same use category, it can continue as long as it, you know, it's continuous. It hasn't there hasn't been a more than a year between when the last use was discontinued and the new use. So that's why Mountain View Arms can be approved. Uh if there was another machine shop that they sold it to, that could that could be allowed as well. But if it was another industrial use, let's say that wanted to occupy the building, it would not be allowed. uh because it wouldn't be allowed in the commercial zone. The grandfather. Yeah. Right. Right. It does. It doesn't apply to every use. It applies to that specific use that was granted. So, I'm going to run down this. I mean, you guys have looked at and thank you for doing the research. Um the difference between the commercial and the industrial. Well, someone needs to stay up there so they can answer. I'm going to ask you some questions. Put it on the screen. You can answer. So given the fact that conditional use means permitted with mitigating conditions, right? Not permitted is easy. It's not permitted. I'm going to run down this list and and as you think about this is more this is not a test of what you plan to do with your land. I cannot I cannot ask you that. I can ask you that. You don't have to answer. Um, but you don't have to tell me what your future business plans are. So, this is not a commitment by any means of for for you guys to do anything, but it helps me test our ordinance. Right. So, again, given that a conditional use is a permitted use with conditions, are you planning to put a junkyard on your property? Absolutely not. Are you planning to do There's a whole list, so I'm just going to sit down. Are you planning to do heavy manufacturing? Define. Define heavy. Can you look up the definition for us? It's not as heavy as you might think. I'll just say that if we want to if we want to get go down that light industrial is very light. I'll just say that. Heavy. A play sand or building or portion there of this user intended for the manufactured predominantly from previously prepared materials of finished products or parts including processing, fabrication, assembly, treatment, packaging, incidental storage, sales and distribution of such products but excluding basic industrial processing. This term includes furniture production, apparel manufacturing, printing, publishing and the like. Okay. Okay. So, you my answer maybe to that, I guess, is what you're saying. Yeah. Okay, fair enough. Um, you're you're helping me a lot. Um, are you planning to do mineral extraction? No. Are you planning to run a pest control business? No. Are you planning to run a recycling collection facility? No. Are you planning a sexually oriented business? Not current. That That's a big deal. That that's a big deal by the way between industrial commercial. We have to allow it somewhere and we allow it in industrial. Actually, we're turning we're turning away sales tax when it's industrial and not commercial because people don't pay tax. I know this sales tax to MMS. Becky Jagger does not pay sales tax to Majestic Mountain Sage. She doesn't. Or because she's a manufacturer of soap, she buys raw materials from you. But there are plenty of customers that didn't pay sales tax. And guess who gets the sales tax? It goes into the state funds. And then you get your Where does the point of sale sales tax go? From where they place the order in their bedroom or living room. We everything new. That's where we live. Okay. So, I tend but the way things work in reality in because we are a very small um tax collecting either reported underly. We don't they don't report a ordering address to the state tax commission. There she facility within the state tax commission to actually gather that. You need the chairman of the planning commission here to answer that question for the state tax commission. Anyway, let's let's keep going. Um just a few more. Uh sports facilities are both conditionally permitted. How about a storage facility? Some charge for it. Yeah. How about warehousing? It's currently what we do. It's permitted because there's office selling. It's it's Yeah, it's not. Yeah. Okay. It's not It's And finally, at the end of the list, we get to this one called welding and machine shop. And I think that's the crux of the issue, right? So, one remedy here, and I'm I'm testing this list because I'm trying to find out if we have the right ordinance. One remedy is to say, "Hey, look, welding and machine shops should be conditionally permitted in the commercial zone." And then we don't entitle you or whoever you sell it to to all these other things. We just entitle the welding machine shop to a conditional use in the commercial zone. I could agree with that because the person that has asked me to try to get a per a part of that property in front of me available to move his machine shop. Once again, unless you're actually in the building, you would never realize what it is they're doing. I It doesn't smell. You can't hear it. As an employee in my private life, I have dealt with a lot of machine shops. I've had a lot of stuff fabricated here in Cash Valley. I've been in their shops and you know with the appropriate mitigating conditions about noise and smell like you just mentioned, I'm trying to figure out why a welding machine shop is not a conditional use in our commercial as opposed to just reszoning your whole property over to industrial. Okay, that makes perfect sense because quite honestly from an employer running or a person that's running a machine shop, you want to minimize all of the human hazard that would be a problem. Typically the biggest ones are fumes, noise and contaminants. It is expensive for somebody not to be taking care of their employees in those ways which makes them also a great neg. So that's I don't think that belongs freely under industrial. So if you were to get a request for metal parts to move into new mean metal pieces because they warehouse outside where does it fall in this list? Because that's also not what we are looking for. Metalmar according to the list as it stands. Now Levi, you're the guy that makes these decisions more often than we do. You interpret the code. Do you know what metal mark is? Maybe you can describe Metal Mar for us. I've been there. Yeah. Home Depot for steel, right? And they cut in store and it's it's a Yeah. Um they bring it in in wholesale quantities and cut it down to appropriate lengths. Yeah, I'm not I'd have to get into what what that use is and if what if it fits a definition and if it doesn't generally it's not allowed. Now, the state just came out with a process that we have to follow when it doesn't that fit within a use and how you determine if if it, you know, is close enough to another use basically. But see, but let's continue. Every every one of the every one of these the devil's in the details of of what it what it what we call it, it's all based on the definition and the perfect place for all of these that are conditional in industrial. And even if we have a conditional in commercial that's currently not permitted, seems like the perfect perfect place to codify reasonable conditions is in the definition. Right. Okay. So, Nibbly City will allow a conditional use of a welding machine shop that doesn't smell and make noise and cause environmental hazard. Now, that's a general description that would have to be more specific to be interpreted, but it seems like, you know, that's the place that we now codify conditions that um that we can impose in a conditional use permit. I mean, we do that with home occupations. It's a home occupation that doesn't employ outside employees and due to Okay, I'm going to be quiet. Let you guys call is perfect at this point. Well, unfortunately, what I suggested we can't do tonight. Sure. I make a motion to approve for first reading so we can Okay. So, first reading is when we have the introduction, we hear public comments about rats and all that kind of stuff. And then we go out and do some research about those public comments. And the council can ask staff to do additional research on anything that that they think needs to be done before we get to second reading. And then uh we we we can hold our own public hearing at council level. I'm inclined, but I don't know what I'm inclined to do. I think we've heard comments already. If council gets a hold of me and says, I think we ought to do another public hearing. Let's see. Um but then but then we come back to this do some more research do some more thinking talk about some alternatives. You guys are welcome to talk to any member of staff any member of the council and then we'll resolve it at second rating. Okay. And you stayed here for a long time. Thank you for being here. I can't know it's well ours too. Can you help? Okay. So, we haven't we haven't yet. Did you second it? No. I Well, the motion is to to adopt for first permission. Yeah, I'll second it. Okay. So, that's the motion. Can I ask a question? Yeah, we can discuss it. Sure. Same. Can you the same use? So you could have you could have welding house both as a conditional and industrial and conditional. Absolutely. Any any of these could be changed but but that decision just just to be clear it needs to go through another process where where the zoning like you did on the last item you change the zoning. This is a this is a change to a different ordinance which is the land use chart. If if you wanted to entertain something like that, it would have to go through its own process. And whether or not you know the planning commission agrees with that and the rest of the council does, that would need to be considered separately as its own consideration. name. Uh so may already went down some of my line of thinking. Uh but I had a question um that brought up in the as a proponent spoke for my reference and reminder a use chart change typically will include a public notice hearing. So, I felt like it was inferred that changes happened that people weren't made aware of, but my understanding is it's not necessarily one that we would send out a notice to surrounding property because the whole city. Oh, right. Right. Public hearing would happen. Correct. Yeah. Which is different different than it is for the reason. Does that make sense to you all? We have we have a public notice but then we have mailed notices for things like zoning changes still trying to change and you know how that all happen fortunately I'm still waiting for records to be researched on that the gifting now now if if the applicant chose to now I I guess the city could just do it Um, but if you want to wait for the applicant to do it, there is a fee associated with that. So for this application, just so you know, this is based on the consolidated fee schedule, it's $500 for a reason or code change and then $150 for uh public noticing. So it's $650 for this for for the applicant. Just just so you know, every every time that something like this is considered, even if it's Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But but we can also change our ordinance without an application. You could you could I mean the next two questions that kind of which is I think that they're not necessarily interested in one side or the other they're interested in used in in so we don't need to talk about that. um recent recently said a meeting for the general plan and I believe percentage of is currently zoned industrial. Yes, I looked up the presentation but it only showed residential and another but it seemed high there's there's quite a bit of land around the Lou, right? I mean that's that's the majority of it is around the plan. I think that's another reason why I would like to avoid making industrial where we already have commercial. However, please and then you brought up um a legal non right continues with a new property that's been confirmed by our attorney. Mhm. And so you denied an application under a different interpretation. What resolve does that applicant have now that we know they've been granted their business license? They've been granted the business license, I guess. Yeah. I mean, they they didn't have it for a while, so unfortunately. I mean, it was a mistake, but my surgery said he's the only one that holds. We're not holding back with any bow and head. No, none val. just Okay. Those in favor of advancing this the first reading, please say I. I. I. Any oppos? Okay. We'll do it all over again or continue. Not continue. That's a special word. We'll keep doing this. Um, anything for council or sorry staff to research in the meantime what you discuss and see if we can put that in commercial. I I I would I and we can definitely go through that process if if the city wants to if the applicant puts something in. We did at length with the planning commission go through each and every use pretty recently and that was one of them that was discussed. So just just something to keep in mind there. But yeah, and I don't know if they'll be that detailed to say that specific use in the minutes. Uh but but the I think I'm super Interesting. Right. It was discussed for several meetings before the for several workshops before it was uh before the decision was made. Yes. So the disclaimer is there's no guarantees on that. Right. Don't give people guarantees. I'm going to ask the council to consider uh abandoning not abandoning uh suspending the rules and changing the agenda. stuff for me. Um, but well, let me tell you what I'd like you to consider. Um, well, I I think 14 and 14 is more important than 13 or 15 because heritage space is coming up. And we're going to write one heck of a lot of tickets for people that are parking in undeveloped parks, unless we spend a heck of a lot of time out there with orange cones and do not walk. We said among the occasion the code enforcement guy. He already then I just have to fill in for him. Then I just got to work more. He already told me he's So here my proposal is to I forgot to text them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he did. So, next item is ordinance 2550. He text me two hours ago. The next residential zone R. I have a motion from Norm and a second from Nathan to continue that and our next meeting to my second meeting. Next meeting is this special. Oh, let's say our June June 26 meeting. So I have a motion and second to continue to our June 26 meeting ordinance 2515. Discussion seeing none. Those in favor please say I. I. Any post? So that brings us to thank you ordinance 2519. this amen city code regarding parking gear and uh this is our second reading we heard about this the first time last week and I don't know if there's any new information to present probably not probably not but Evan did want to be here discussion and I yeah and I I can I mean he's he said he could be here in five minutes but um is he ticket he just wanted he he just wanted to and and I'm I'm I'm going to paraphrase what he said and may maybe he'll if he gets here um he can explain it more but you know Evan Evan's done a lot of work enforcing this ordinance and and all ordinance in the city and he just wanted to explain that he has seen a huge change in the number of people parking in the park strip primarily you know he's given warnings he's given some I I think he He's given some tickets as well, but uh people's behavior has has been changed in a pretty short amount of time. And so that's just something to consider with with this ordinance. Uh there's also been some people that have invested uh some money in their property because of of the enforcement um because you know they parked in the park strip before and now they need another place to park a vehicle so they're widening a driveway or doing something like that. And so that that's something to consider as well. But it's just it's just something to put out there that behavior has based on Evans uh observations has has changed quite significantly on the number of people that have parked in the park strip um since enforcement has gone into place. I think that's a great point and I think that says that we have effective code enforcement. Now the question for council is the one I'm asking the council what do you want? What what code do you want? This isn't a question of is code enforcement effective. Good. Good. Good. It's a question of do you want people park in to be prohibited from parking in undeveloped parks. So, it's the council's discussion. Go ahead. I would let you off the hook, but we got to do something. Paradise days is coming and people have traditionally parked in one heck of a lot of places all these years that are always were prohibited but will now be enforced either through as part of an education or part of the Sorry, I guess can I just make a clarification on what exactly our options are here? What are the two the directions we're looking at? Uh, do you want to pull up the red ordinance? this in see motion and a second to still answer the questions up a little bit. Thank you. So we define Justin, you wrote this. I thought you did a great job. You want to tell us what it is? Well, as I thought about it and and I was just trying to figure out a way to differentiate. It seems like 3200 South had a lot of problems. The old parts in town were having troubles. 26 32. And so the question I had really is for you to decide is is parking in the park strip problem in these areas. So your options are to say yes, that is a problem. We don't want people to do it. And in that case, you need to do nothing. You can just let this die. The existing code will continue and Evan will go out there and continue to put warnings on anybody that parks between the edge of the asphalt and the sidewalk in these areas where there's no curb and gutter. The amendments just try to differentiate between a developed park strip and an undeveloped park strip. An undeveloped park strip would be areas where there is no curb at the edge of the asphalt. So, including ribbon curbs. So, if you across the street here in Apple Creek, they have a ribbon curb that would be considered developed. You should not park in there. But many other places along 3200 South, and we can pull those pictures back up if we need to. There's no curb. And so, people are pulling off the asphalt, they're on gravel, they're on grass, they're on weeds, they're on whatever, but they're not on the asphalt, therefore not in the bike lane, they're not on the sidewalk. So if if I'm not advocating one way or the other, but if you are okay with that, this code change would allow them to continue to do that. And specifically, it just differentiates between a developed and an undeveloped park strip. And it says that you cannot park in a developed park strip. So you cannot pull up over a curb and park on a between a curb and gutter and sidewalk anywhere in town. If there's no curb, you can pull into that space. And as long as you're not in the bike lane, as long as you're not on the sidewalk, you're fine. And I will add, we do have a fair amount of cases of people parking in a develop what would be considered in this a developed park strip. There's there's quite a few of those as well. Right. Yeah. I mean, just anecdotal, I I I see it frequently and then we we have to enforce it. Yeah. And if you have a developed there, then also I think if that's the case, we'd have to go sign it. Yeah. Anywhere. Anywhere with signage. I we I guess we can put signs anywhere and say no parking. And there I mean that's that's allowed, too. I I thought about writing that into the artic that says we can prohibit 13 parking anywhere want so we can do that already. I mean, what I would do, what I would like us to do, I think it'd be a very nice proactive thing instead of um not so much uh enforcement like you can't do this, but if we know of property owners that have expressed, gee, I like this because they can't park in my undeveloped park strip and I want to beautify it and I've already beautified it. would reach out to those people and say, "Hey, we support that. We'll put a sign on your problem that says you that you and everyone else can now park and maybe even, you know, take it to a newsletter article that says, "Hey, we've changed this ordinance if the council's inclined to do so. We've changed the ordinance to allow uh or to to allow parking in these undeveloped park strips. But if you feel like you don't want parking in the undeveloped park strip that's next to the property you own that undeveloped park strip uh come to the city and we'll work something out like put signs up for you for development. Yeah, we could go put curve gutter. We could put curve gutter there