Nibley City Council- 12/4/2025

Give us opening ceremonies, please.

»Yes.

»One of the wonderful things about locally as a community is just how giving the community, how interested they are in each other and creating a really great environment for everybody. And um that is we'll be talking about it a little bit more tonight um with the presentation that's coming up from just serve but that truly I think is reflective of the community of Nibi people are interested in serving the giving to this community nurturing and and strengthening this community. I think one of the most remarkable things about living in I know that's something that as council members we appreciate of the unique opportunity we have to serve in our unique capacity that's no greater or less than any other service that have given the community and just want to express thanks the giving nature of those who live here and with that I also wanted to I aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

»Thank you Katie. And with that we'll call the December 4th 2025 city council meeting to order. Normally let's start with you on roll call please. Norman Larson,

»Nathan Mowers,

»Larry Jacobson, and let's uh introduce staff Roberts, city planner.

»Justin W, city manager,

»Cheryl Bley, city recorder.

»And next, will you introduce additional staff?

»Yeah, we have Steve, our public works director, and Tal, our assistant city recorder. Nick Kenska, planning commission chair. Anyone else want to Chad? Right. Uh in the back, recreation director. Anyone else want to plead guilty to anything tonight?

»Okay. Thanks all for showing up. Appreciate your interest in city governance and thanks for being here. Council, if you would turn your attention, please to the November 6 meeting minutes. We also have minutes for you to consider from November 17th. It's the board of uh canvasers which is the second duty that you another duty you perform as city council members uh that certified the election. So there's two sets of minutes for you to consider.

»Mayor a motion to approve both sets of minutes and agenda.

»Okay. I have a motion from Norm and a second from K. That's on two sets of minutes and tonight's agenda. Any discussion on that motion? Okay. See none. Those in favor of adopting minutes and agenda, please say I.

»I.

»Anyone opposed? Okay, that passes. Next, we have uh to fulfill our tradition of uh allowing and welcoming public comment at Nibly City Council meetings. We do have a short set of rules. You can say anything you want about us and about the city, good or bad, as long as you stick to city business. That's the only thing that we have to pertain to. I encourage you, if you look at our agenda, you see this is a full agenda. I encourage you to be concise with your comments. Um if if uh uh we we will limit each person to three minutes. And as you can see on the agenda, uh, city council, um, the the public comment runs for 15 minutes. If we're going hot and heavy and the council wants to hear more comments, I'll leave it to you all. Happy to listen for as long as people on top. We will limit each person to three minutes. So, I think that helps people be concise and get their points across. So if you would like to address the council on any matter related to Nimble City, please come forward. Tell us who you are, where you live, then give us your thoughts.

»Good evening, Ryan Ricky living in Stonebridge. Um, I want to say thank you for serving our community. We truly appreciate you and the sacrifice you give. Uh the following dates represent incidents on 12 West when my wife andor teenage drivers have had traffic incidences such as swerving to avoid a head-on collision at the scurve because of the barriers. So February 14th, May 17th, May 28th, September 16th, October 9th, October 17th, and November 14th. My wife and teenagers drive 12 West every day. And I'm really getting tired of these instances that have all taken place in the last just year. Um so as a concerned husband and and father um I ask you to make changes if you would continue to explore changes as I'm worried what the next year will bring my family because of so many close instances. The road is unsafe specifically as my wife and children are trapped by the barrier and I've measured the barrier to be 7 in from the lane at one point. So as you're driving you're seven in from a concrete barrier. This is unsafe and it's unacceptable distance according to the Federal Highway Administration as 7 in is unacceptable. Furthermore, according to a John Hopkins study titled the National Investigation on the Impact of lane width on traffic safety, this was published in 2023. According to that study, 1200 West is overengineered. The study found that narrow lanes were effective enough to measure uh and slow traffic. And they those John Hopkins researchers concluded that and I'll quote them. By reducing lane width, cities can effectively calm traffic without the need for extensive traffic calming measures or artificial narrowing such as the concrete barriers on 1200 West. So I would just there's a lot of data out there. I'm sure we'll hear more data tonight about it. You can find counterarguments to both. Please continue to explore and look for ways to do this without such extreme uh measures. So in conclusion, as a citizen of ini, I have reviewed uh the proposed resolutions for tonight regarding total west. I've looked at those and I do not support the current resolution to further what I would say waste taxpayer money to change the bullouts to smaller bulb outs. Uh I propose that you remove them instead. They create a problem for me and my family every day as we come and go in the neighborhood in which we live. Please remove them. Thank you. I really wish you all a happy holidays and again thank you for your your dedication.

»Thank you. I appreciate it. Um just one thing before you step down the citations. I would love it. Uh I'd love to read articles that people recommend to me. Would you give us the citations that you mentioned, maybe give them to Cheryl, pass them on to their council? Thank you so much. Um, if you signed up, you're welcome to come up in some sort of order. You don't have to sign up. I also have Jane Rigby here. Would you like to go next, Jane? Or Mr. Auto, would you like to go next?

»Sure.

»Okay.

»Um, see if I can do this quickly. Um,

»sorry.

»Yeah. on 298 for Stonebridge Drive. Um, I'll read it. Um, thank you for your time and the opportunity to share my thoughts with the city council, the mayor, and the city staff. Um, I do want to start by saying that I'm frustrated that to even be here tonight. My family, my ward family, my neighbors, um, are at our ward Christmas parties tonight. Um, I'd rather be there, but I'm concerned that if I didn't show up, that if we don't continue to show up, the city will assume residents are comfortable with the current design of 1200 West. As citizens, we should be able to trust that our voices matter, that clear opposition to this is take that clear opposition is taken seriously. There have been several Facebook threads with more than 50 comments from residents who oppose the jury barriers in the mountable islands. And from what I can tell, those are residents that are not in Stonebridge, but other parts of Ni. Um, when I travel for work and describe what was built on 1200 West to people outside of the valley, the reaction is always a surprise. They see it as a waste of taxpayer dollars and cannot understand why a city like Nidley would keep these structures despite so many problems being reported. About a year ago, the council passed a motion to revisit the road after one year of experience. We have now reached that point and it is clear that it has not been a success. Instead, it is proven to be a fail design. I hope the council has the courage to acknowledge that um and remove what is there. I would much prefer a road like 3200 South um as it is today. It functions safely. It matches how people drive and it does not create unnecessary hazards. Um from my own experience, the design of 1200 West has created real safety issues. The Mountible Islands were supposed to slow cars down by forcing sharper turns. Yet, this assumes perfect driver behavior. That is not how people drive on this road. Cars regularly travel in excess of 35 mph. When I slow down to move through the chicanees and or turn, vehicles often pass me in the oncoming lane at high speeds. This design frustrates drivers and encourages risky decisions, which is the opposite of improving safety. The Jersey barriers add another challenge. They block visibility for any anyone low to the ground, including kids and cyclists. As I've mentioned in previous council meetings, my wife rides a hand cycle, and behind those barriers, she's almost invisible to drivers. And we also cannot easily see if someone is in a bike lane when turning in or out of the neighborhoods. These barriers eliminate the natural sight lines that used to make this road predictable. Across the neighborhood, people have dealt with serious issues because of these features. Emergency vehicles have struggled to move through the road because drivers have nowhere to pull over. Ambulances have hit the mountable islands while transporting patients. Parents worry about children crossing because cars cannot see them behind concrete walls. Others have experienced near misses because there is no shoulder to pause or turn safely. All this shows a clear pattern. The design creates problems instead of solving them. The character of the road has changed. It feels narrow, cramped, and unforgiving. Wild winter weather and darkness make everything worse because there is no margin for error. None of this aligns with Nim's values of the cities. For this reason, I'm asking you resolution that keeps these features in place, even if in smaller form. Replacing large amount of islands with smaller ones still accepts the overall design, which I am against. And I'll just end there even though I don't think

»um for for those who don't know just a matter of housekeeping. We're taking comment here. It's not uh uh the comment that we've heard so far is related to a later agenda item and then that council will have a chance to discuss that as as listed on the agenda. And I'm confident when I look at the agenda, Mr. probably go to the party, come back and we'll still maybe be getting to the topic thing. the topic that you're interested in.

»I'll be there in 10 minutes.

»Okay. Uh

»please go.

»Okay. So, I'm Kelly Clarkson. I'm at 1150 West and about 2800 South. And I'm eloquent in my words, but a few of the problems that I have seen with the slowing calling traffic measures in place are confusion generally. Um, I had a daughter pulled up um to turn north uh southbound on to 1200 West and the police officer while she was waiting there was trying to turn into our neighborhood. He was so confused also about where to go. So he turned between the barriers and the bullout. Um because there is no room for two vehicles to be at that intersection safely. Um and so that was a pretty strong example to her on yes, this is very confusing. It's normal for me to feel asleep. Um, I feel that there's a visibility issue. Um, I one of my teenage drivers was driving southbound on 1200 West and somebody jetted across the intersection into Stonebridge because they couldn't see him and he was almost t-boned. He is a new driver and this was very it shook him. Sorry, I'm shaking too. This is scary. Um, it shook him but there was nohere for him to pull off and calm down. So he had to continue driving upset until he could turn on 3200 south and then there was space for him to pull over and calm down and think about how like what was wrong about that situation. So that was obviously heartbreaking as a mom to know that even though he happened to clear that intersection and not get hit though it was very close that he couldn't even pull off and had to be in an upset state driving. Um, another frustrating thing for me is that the Nibling Gardens Park right there is not really accessible. Um, my husband and I frequently um, volunteer as coaches for Nuclear Recreation and that is the park that is really close to our home and makes it more feasible for us to be um, coaches in the recck programs to be able to hold our practices there. And it's quite difficult for us to um ask families to come there where there's nowhere to park and walk their child easily to the park. They have to park quite a distance away from the park. Um and then we have had emergency vehicles in our neighborhood recently um an ambulance multiple times recently who are quite upset and frustrated with the boldouts and how difficult it made made their job coming and going. So um from my standpoint in my neighborhood it is also an emergency issue. Um we also have seen many veh uh construction vehicles in the driving the bike lanes excuse me and that has definitely caused some concern for sending our children out into the bike lane. um those construction vehicles are big and they would definitely win that battle or potentially being up high and away from the road with their um buckets and such. It could be very hard for them to see our children in those five lane um especially being you know especially children adults see a little easier but that is definitely a safety issue as well. Um I know that this was brought up a year ago that you would revisit it and I do want to thank you for revisiting it today. Thank you. Hello everyone. My name is Amanda Wilding. I live at 1 1133 I don't know. No

»one3 Thank you guys for your time, your dedication and K. Thank you for being on July 23rd. June 23rd, I was in my car and I was driving. I was ready to take my kids on a fun adventure when unexpected happened. my parents brand new car, their tire, the rear tire um when it blew and it forced my car like I lost control of my um I was able to slow down somewhat but I swerved a lot and luckily I was on I-15 and luckily there was a Jersey barrier and my car hit a 180 and slammed right into that barrier. That barrier saved my life and my children's life and my nephew's life. That jersey barrier was doing what it should. A Jersey barrier is there to prevent the wind oncoming traffic. That jersey barrier prevented me and my family from going into I-15 oncoming traffic. It is also meant for high speeds and high speeds is defined as anything 15 mph over or 80 miles per hour. The left street in 12 west does not meet those two qualifications. If I were to have that same accident, if my tire were to blow on 12 west, the only option is going into oncoming traffic. I would have never known that my tire was to blow. It was a brand new car. We need to create laws that operate under an abundance of caution. What I don't understand is why we spent so much on 12 West that means an abundance more children in traffic on AP 10. I don't understand why we have to do Jersey barriers. Why not? Why not post nation? Like you can see those in the dark. You can't see a jersey barrier in the dark. And looks like we spend more money and place more stickers. Um we probably should just hang out with you on Saturday morning because I just have so many questions. Was this the most cost effective method way? Was this the best way to spend funds? Why would why didn't we do speed bumps? Why didn't we do this? Why don't we have more reflective bites? Was this is the Viking tribulation worth this justification and this amount of money? Did we were we stewards? And now I have no opinions just yet. So I'm not in favor of that road. I understand barrier saved my life, but I think these little compromise. Thank you.

»Thank you, Amanda. Um since you offered an invitation, I'll reflect it back to you. if you read the newsletter.

»I did

»next next two months 9:00 a.m. Saturday morning here.

»Okay. See you there.

»Okay. One one of these Saturdays I look for look forward to seeing. Jakey, 2997 Stonebridge Drive. Thank you, council members. Um, over the past year, I've tried hard to understand the logic behind the redesign of 12 West. Um, I've been told that there was two goals. One to protect bikers and pedestrians, and two, to slow down cars to reduce crashes. And I'm totally in line with those goals. I think they're great goals, but the design contradicts them in a major way. So, I have two questions tonight. First, if the goal of slowing cars down is to reduce crashes, why did this design, this redesign introduce more opportunities for head-on collisions? That doesn't make sense to me. One of the deadliest crash types doing this. And second, how can we be comfortable removing a driver's ability to avoid a head-on collision altogether? Right now, the barrier forces every driver into a narrow lane with no recovery zone. And the entire design depends on hoping, literally hoping that every driver stays perfectly centered in their lane. But hope does not protect families. And we all know people speed, people text, people drift, people make mistakes. And when they do, this road gives us no way out. And I'm surprised the city is okay with that. I'm surprised that we're only given that much room on 3200 Main or 10th West, which are other major roads in this area. If somebody decides to speed and go 100 miles hour in an opposing lane, it doesn't affect me. If they come into my lane, I have room to get out of the way, to recover, to protect me, to protect my family. On 12 West, I'm a sitting duck. I got a barrier right here that if somebody comes into my lane, I have to sit there and let them hit me straight on. I'm not okay with that. And that's why people are here tonight. We're not okay with that. We don't feel safe. It doesn't feel comfortable. The speed data that you guys provided showed that most people are averaging around 35 miles per hour, 38 miles per hour. But there's also some that are up to 72 miles per hour. That shows you, that's proof that you can't control every single driver out there and the speed that they're going to go. I just want to know that I have the ability to still get out of their way if they're going to choose to make a bad decision. Also, in regards to the islands, I want to know if you are honestly okay with cars backing up on 12 West. You can't tell me that's safe. You can't tell me that that's how this should be designed. Cars should not be backing up on 12 West or immediately stopping when they're not supposed to or giving right away to people that don't have the rideway. That's a failure design. That shouldn't be the way this should be put together. Um, we've we've also been told that the islands were supposed to help us see pedestrians better. You guys have heard that we've mentioned that the barriers block smaller people, children, and little bikes. You can't see them until they're out in your lane. I'm not okay with that. And are you really so tied to the the barriers and these islands that you're willing to overlook all of these things? Um, do the pros truly outweigh the cons? Because myself and 250 other people that have signed a petition can't see it. I just want to plead that I know I I've heard that there's been money allocated to fixing or modifying the islands. I would plead you don't do that. Don't Don't modify them. Don't put your money, taxpayers money into something that doesn't work.

»Thank you, Jake.

»I appreciate it. Um, you've asked some questions. We will I I I consider your questions to be more of a policy discussion than a request for information. So, uh, we'll encourage the council to answer those questions in a policy type statement when it's on our agenda item.

»Thank you.

»Hi, my name is Kevin Riggy. I'm a senior at Richland High School. I drive 12 West multiple times each day to school and other activities with my younger siblings in my car. As a teenage driver with only a short amount of driving experience, I want you to know that I have had seven different close calls on Wild West. I have had to swerve horn and even hit the concrete curve because of the S-curve where there is no room for error. Just like Jake said, the barrier traps me in these situations and I'm sitting and I am a sitting duck. Driver's education didn't prepare me for these kind of trapped situations. I'm tired of having close calls. Please remove the barriers and ask her. Thank you.

»Thank you, Kevin. Council, we're 20 minutes into it. I'll leave it up to you. We go as long as you want. I serve at the pleasure of the council and run this meeting as as you wish. How many more that are on the list specifically? I have one, two, three that have signed up.

»Can we exhaust that list? Sure. I'll go by the list. That would be um Did I miss one? Dan rugby. Lot of rugbys. You guys still doing a family reunion for you? Council members, thank you for letting me stay support tonight. Um, I'm at 2994 Stonebridge Drive. I'm It's been said I feel the same way. These are frustrating. We met a year ago, we've given it a year. Um, we've spoken up, had people sign a petition. Really not happy with these. We've driven it every day for a year. Narrow lanes, rigid barriers. It's just a safety hazard. Uh the Federal Highway Administration states that when drivers need to avoid a hazard, any fixed rigid object close to the lane increases the risk of severe injury or fatality. You put a cement barrier there. You have nowhere to swerve. You're just creating a situation where you don't have a way out. And we've experienced that over the past year. It's really this isn't us just coming giving up our night. This is a real thing we're dealing with every day and saying, "Hey, for the past year, we've been trying to drive this road, but it's not working." Dangerous not having it out on that side, the mountable islands. I get it. You're trying to make it so you can see pedestrians better by turning. But what I've noticed driving in and around us every single day is people fixate on the metal islands. They're not even looking at pedestrians. I run that road and I run it and we run that road and people aren't looking at us. They're looking at these islands that they're having to drive around. They're coming into oncoming traffic and so we're not creating the safety things that you guys wanted to creating chaos and problems. I love supporting bikers. I think that's great. I love the bike. Um but I think we've been what we wanted to by putting drivers in dangerous situations. St. George is a great example of creating a bike lane that can serve the people and still facilitate what drivers need to do. They've got great bike lanes all around the city that allow you to bike and go without the risk of cars running into you, which I'm fully in favor of. What we did here is we created a great bike lane and horrible driving mode for those that are going back and forth on it every single day. Uh the line of sight is really difficult on these crossing that road going from Stone Bridge into the um on Southwest. Several times little kids are riding behind the super barrier and you don't see them until they come right out in the open and you're going and you have to slam on your brakes and try to avoid a hit of hitting them. So just in conclusion, as a citizen of Nibi, I've reviewed your proposal as well. I strongly encourage you please don't put more money. Please remove them. We don't need to make adjustments to them. They're not working. I ask you to not vote in favor of putting more tax dollars into making adjustments. We're really we're at the point where we're seeing it for a year now that they're not working. We ask you to please consider removing them. Thank you.

»Thank you, Dan. Can you give Cheryl your citation please for my benefit?

»Yeah.

»Thank you, Emily Ringby. Hi, I'm Emily Rickby, 2996 Stonebridge Drive. Um, first off, I just want to say thank you to the council, especially in North K. Like, you guys have just done so much. It's great to be able to interview you guys tonight, uh, for your time and your service. Um, that son of mine that was just up here, um, we recently had an interesting medical procedure and as we were driving home on 400 West, he actually became unstable. Um, and I needed to pull over eently. um in that moment of panic and wondering my kid's not breathing. My like you you get in this panic moment and there's nowhere to go. You're blocked in on this road. Um 3200 there's place to pull over. 10th there's place to pull over. There's um there's nowhere there. It created a very unsafe situation for me and my child. Um I was trapped on 1200 West by the barriers. Um that is a serious issue for me and my family. And as you've heard from a lot of our family, we have had multiple serious issues on that road. Um, I've driven the roads in Cash Valley for 14 years and never have I had as many problems in a year's time, in 14 years as I have in one year on this 1,200 bus. And I feel like I'm a fairly safe driver. Uh, and as a student, you'll be driving this road every day. I ask you to please change it. Remove the barrier. It's a problem. The road itself is a nice wide road. You can keep We can make changes that will keep bikers safe. I don't I don't want to put a biker's lier to risk but the bikers that are there also we need to be protecting the drivers. Um I have reviewed the proposed resolution for tonight and regarding 1200 lifts and I do not support the uh spending further taxpayer money when changing those foldouts or cutting reflective glare. Something else needs to be done. These problems for me and my family daily. Please consider not passing that. Um let's find a let's find a different solution. Thank you. Is it? No.

»Larson.

»Sure.

»My name is Alicia McBride. I live at 273 off 1150 West. My house runs, my whole side of Mayor runs along 12 bus and um so I deal with it daily. Uh the cars that that drive by um with even with with those they still go um speeding past. Um turning into my neighborhood is very difficult. Um, I can't I I drive a full-size truck. And so when I pull into my neighborhood, I have to swing wide, which what is really scary because I've had cars try and pass me on the right because they're not paying attention that I am turning right, but I have to swing wide so that I don't either hit the barrier, the mouse, or I do not end up into oncoming traffic. I'll end up into where right where the stop sign is. um getting out of that neighborhood with the snow. I was actually there. I was there shortly after the um snow plow hit one of those barriers. I saw Matt looking at his rig, making sure everything was okay. I couldn't get out of my neighborhood. It was a oneway one lane road to get out um through the snow. We only had one or two really, you know, big storms, but driving along when I I work as a teacher in Hyum and I drive that early in the morning when um the snow clouds haven't even finished plowing getting through there. There's not a lot of place for the snow to go when um when they do plow it. I've seen kids playing on it. Um using it as a skateboarder. Um I see him walking along the barrier. Um, one hill fell in front of me. Luckily, I was far enough that I was able to stop. Um, the S-curve, I've seen a lot of large vehicles not able to make that turn and I've had to slow down considerably almost to a stop so that I felt I could make it through without being hit. Um, we um, this has just been a big problem. I deal with it every day. Um, trying to get in and out. We cannot bring our trailers in and out. I have a friend that just tried to get into it. He said he had a real hard time getting his close trailer into my neighborhood. The road is not wide enough um to pull in. And also it's just we we won't we have to go all the way around just so that we can get our trailers in and out of our house. um we don't want we can't go over the the mounds um because we have a boat and it's just we just we just want to be heard. Those of us that are affected that live right next to it um we would want we really want you to just consider getting rid of the masks, getting rid of the barriers, it just causes more problems than it has solved. Thank you.

»Thank you. Uh we're at 30 minutes council. I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to draw this to a close. 15 minutes is a lot of time given the length of the agenda. Um unless you instruct me otherwise, do you have something to say? I was going to think we don't have any more people would like to speak to it or is the sentiment pretty much the same and there isn't anything else to say?

»That's not a question for me. I I I'll repeat that for you. Does someone have something new to say to the council?

»John May 2560 South 1100 West. I drive that road every day and the barriers need to come out. The mounds need to come out and it's I mean that's the simple solution to all of it. For the past 12 years I've lived here, there was nothing wrong with the road to begin with. I don't know why they dug up four feet of it just to fill it back in with the same dirt. That was a waste of taxpayer money. And as far as who pays for it, I mean, obviously we're going to have to pay for it again. But the people that planned it, the people that made the decision to go along with it, maybe they ought to come up with some of their own money to take care of it because we've already paid for it once and we didn't even need to.

»That's it.

»Thank you, Mr. May. Same question to the council.

»Yeah. Sure. People comment about something and then just remind people that they can send comments.

»Do I need to repeat that? Did you hear it? Okay. So, Nathan, you repeat it.

»Yeah. Just if there's anybody that has something to comment that's not 1,200 or less, I don't want that option just because taking so much on that topic and then you anyone that had something to say that wasn't able to is always welcome to email those comments to share in the public.

»I can tell them my email address.

»Sure.

»Or I can Cheryl Bnib. Cheryl B as in Cheryl Bodily nibblycity.gov. Nathan, would you have one?

»Is it two seconds?

»I won't start the clock till you get to the mic, but

»welcome. Name, address, please.

»My name's Lynch. I'm the chief of medical operations with Hy Fire Department. I live at 126 South 58 and hire me. Um, I just want as you're considering these changes and the fixes, everyone's brought up all the safety concerns already. I'm not going to go into that, but in the fire code 503.4.1, it says traffic calming devices shall be prohibited unless approved by the fire code official, which is higher in Cash County, and they were never approved. So, I encourage you as you move forward, get the fire involved. But we can look at these safety concerns. There's a whole bunch of codes that go along with the problems on this road and they're there to keep people safe. So, please consider getting with Cash County or higher and fire and going through fire code as you consider redesign for this. Thank you.

»Okay. Thank you all for coming. We more than welcome you to stay for the rest of the agenda. Come back for the item of interest based on comments tonight. Watch it on YouTube. We're pretty hot. Pretty hot. We have a lot of calls on YouTube. I hear you. Uh uh you're welcome to we the council is listening to you. Uh the council hears you and the council appreciates your comments on this. So with that, unless there objection from the council, we'll move on to the next agenda item. Seeing none, let's go to planning and zoning report. Please uh do you guys need a minute to exit or you want to stay?

»Okay, let's hold off. Sure. Okay, thanks Nick. This is uh Nick Kinska, our planning and zoning commission chair. Here's a report from PNZ activities.

»Yeah, just a quick report from the previous meeting. We did discuss um items 13,4 and 15 on tonight's agenda. Um I believe all those past meeting unanimously, excuse me. Uh we also did have an open house uh for general plan update which was really interesting and a lot of uh a lot of good citizen involvement. um got some good feedback uh from the planning commission and hopefully that'll percolate obviously into the general plan process and then eventually the general plan process will go into review both at the planning commission level city um and then we also did discuss um the prospective um annexation along road. Obviously that has not become a legislative decision yet, but um the the agenda item did give come before the planning commission and we did recommend the re zone um or the for the that designation essentially if they're seeking legislative that's it for planning commission report does anyone on the council have any questions for me? I don't see anything, Nick. I do actually. You have one. Um, you will be you have been elected. You're a a council member elect. So, you'll be jumping from planning commission to council. And I have a question about I'm I'm looking at recommendations to the council for planning commissioners. And obviously, we need some replacements for terms that are expiring and people that are moving off. Um, Levi, off the top of your head, I put you on the spot and this is our last council meeting for the year. When is and I can look up I know when our first council meeting is next year. Do I need a special council meeting to staff the planning commission? Now, planning commissioners stay on until we find a replacement. And I'm confident we're going to find people who are interested in serving on the planning commission. I'm I'm working on that. They stay on until we find a replacement. That's the way it reads. Nick, you can't do both. I I know you're power hungry, but have to back off a little bit.

»So, we won't have Nick on the on the commission.

»Do you know when off the top of your head, the first planning?

»It's the It's the 15th. So, it's a week after the first city council meeting. So, if you

»We'll at least have a week.

»Yeah. What happened agenda for the council to uh consent? Thanks for letting me take a minute or listen to the minutes just from my personal perspective on serving on the plate commission. It's a wonderful opportunity to serve Nidley and get involved in the process and really I feel like it's just a great way to become educated about how this crazy thing that we do works in the inner workings of how decisions are made. Um, so I would obviously encourage anyone who's interested in getting involved to discuss that.

»Yeah, thank you. Thanks for that plug. And so, uh, the way that works is I make a recommendation to the council for their consent. Um, I am very pleased that there are we have a list of people that have expressed a concern. Uh, concerned. Sorry, I'm still on the last expressed an interest in serving and so they have reached out to me. If there are others out there, please please please let me know. My phone number is on the website. Uh my email is on the website. Send me a text and and let's let's talk about it. Okay. Thank you for that, Nick, for reminding me. Okay. Now, here's here's a little bit of a change in direction. I don't know how you follow, but give it a give it a shot. We're going to hear from a a wonderful organization called Just Serve. This is a this is a presentation to Dibly City and this is Gary Anderson, a local just serve representative. Correct. Thank you.

»And I thank you so much for your time and uh the desire of NibLy City to be such great leaders in in service and opportunities for citizens within your community. Just serve is a platform. If you know about just serve or have not heard, it's a platform where we try to connect people's service opportunities in the valley. So if a lot of people want to serve, they want to help, they want to be involved, but not always know where to find it. Uh I personally serve on several different coalitions of nonprofit organizations as well as the the a family coalition of profit of nonprofit organizations um and have the opportunity to visit with talk to the need for service within our community and often times and and I know as a council Um, I've served on different things myself that a lot of times we look to the government or we look to a church or we look to um um somebody else to be able to to offer that type of service when really within our communities that we'd serve each other and help each other. So we appreciate so much that Nibi City has chosen to become a just serve city and the opportunity to be able to do that. Um just serve brings people together, helps nurture and culture service and increases understanding desire to do goods and I hope we all have a desire to do that to be involved with that help. We want to help and serve and be part of identifying needs within the community and how best to serve those needs. We help organizations connect and also that the website is always available. If you go to justerve.org, you'll see multiple service opportunities. We'd like to include more of those within Nibbi City and what Nibbly City is doing. Right now there's over there's 17 countries 16,000 organizations over 400 cities. As I was visiting earlier I was mentioning that New York City little Jets are city Los Angeles city and there was suggestion why don't we make a bump bumper sticker that says New York City, Los Angeles city and city all just those cities that we be able to serve. And just maybe uh I know you're pressed for time. We also like to recognize those in the community who do outstanding service and the opportunity to be able to recognize them and support them in the things that they do. This is a testim a testament from Franklin City uh from Franklin, Tennessee, but I think this right here from Los Angeles, California to their police department. And we are one of those organizations that people think of as just law enforcement. That's really never been our game. We're back. We're actually about bettering the community. One of the things we focused on is coordination of community resources to better the community and just serve has definitely been an integral part of that relationship. I hope that we can be able to do that. I thank you so much. I'd also like to introduce if I could just quickly Wayne Demick. Wayne is the chairman of the B River Communication Council and also the chairman of the Cash Communication Connections, which is an interfaith group, interfaith organization made up of civic and and religious leaders. If you just take one or two minutes, but I'd like to present this plaque to the city. Not sure who to hand that to if that would be okay.

»Let's go to the center and that'll be Yeah.

»Thank and hold it up. Hold it up for us. Yeah. Thank you so much, Mr. Anderson. Very great. Thank you.

»Thank you, Gary. We want to give our congratulations to the city of Italy. As I understand, Gary, are the first city in Cash Valley. And so, we appreciate your leadership. We hope more cities uh get on board and this is a great organization. I've been able to see it work. I have a close friend who was on another city council. Uh one day in visiting with him, he pulled out a paper and had 21 projects that he was trying to figure out how to take care of. They didn't have the resources. And I said, I think I know someone who can help you just serve. and uh they they were able to be a great help doing also I'm the chair of cash community connection which was created right after 911 to bring communities together we are in the process this next year of having a celebration valleywide for the national day of service and involve every city and do some incredible things and bring groups and projects together to really unite communities. And so we will get more information on it. Mayor, you'll probably hear about it. But again, congratulations for being a jester of the city.

»Thank you. I I have to say a few words. So this the accolades that the thanks to your appreciation you're giving us is is not due to the council by any means. It's due the citizens of Nickel. And so on behalf of them, we represent them in lots of ways and we are very proud to represent the citizens in their volunteer efforts this way. You know, I have in my mind that someday I'm going to say something so important that people will remember it. Okay? And I I had the honor I had the privilege of getting interviewed by local newspaper on this very award that you all have bestowed on this. And so I had my quote. It didn't even make the newspaper. So, I'm going to give it to you, Dad. Right. So, here's my feeling on it. And council, I'll give you a chance as well. No hourly wage paid to part-time employees can ever be effective as volunteer citizens working to enact their passion. So, our thanks to you for for all of the stuff that citizens do. Um uh and the newspaper article talked about examples of how many things nibly citizens are involved in and so our thanks.

»Thank you.

»Okay. Uh comments or questions from the council?

»Thank you.

»Okay. We appreciate you.

»Thank you.

»Yep. And next we come to a sad agenda item for me. This is uh maybe not for you guys, but it's sad for me because it's been it's been such a pleasure, such a incredible honor for me to be able to interact with you on sometimes daily, sometimes weekly basis on the concerns of Nicholas City. So, thank you for your service to the council and um I just want to read part of the proclamation. Now, there now therefore be resolved proclaimed that Nimbi City extends its heartfelt appreciation to council members Larsson and Sweden for the exemplary service, steadfast leadership, and meaningful contributions to our community. We can never thank you enough. And so we appreciate what you've done for us. And we have we have we have parting gifts. So we have our own street sign. Now be careful where you put this because uh well you know let's not confuse let's not confuse traffic. So thank you so much Mayor, if I could real fast, just on behalf of city staff, we also want to thank council members Norman Larson and Case. It's been an honor. It's been a privilege and we really appreciate all that you've done over the past four years and and even longer. So, thank you. We appreciate everything and hope to be able to still come around and be interact with you guys as much as possible. So glad you brought them. Thank you. You want to be on two.

»Okay. Thanks. Um, this is a good segue. The volunteer idea is a great segue to our next agenda item. I want to introduce Craig Marlo who would like to have a workshop. Craig, come on up, please. uh with the council talking about another volunteer effort that uh um could be citizen passion in action. So Craig, is that enough of an introduction? I'm going to let you take it from there.

»Okay. Thank you.

»The mic here. Okay.

»Okay. I don't Thank you council for giving me the time to speak. I need to sleep off the citizens more or the board more look both ways. One top. Um so this is in regard to Andrew Bike Park. Um many of you may be familiar with it. It is um kind of an area of rolling hills and jumps and rollers and stuff for the biking community. He gets a lot of traffic, children and uh and probably adults as well. Um thus far I have worked a little bit with Chad here um with him and Rod with Parks and Wreck uh spoken with the parks and rec board. And so now I want to present this conceptually to the council here. Um I'm going to go through it pretty quick because I know that the night can get long here. So, I want to fly through it. Um, Chad, if you have any input to get in here and then, um, if anybody has any questions, I invite you to reach out to me and I'd be happy to discuss it at length. So, um, the general concept is to kind of revitalize that bike mark. Um, does everybody everybody out here talking about

»or is it a mystery to anybody?

»Mystery.

»So, this is on the east side of Ender Park. There's the H parking lot and then if you look east of that, there are mounds of dirt that kids ride their bikes on and do what kids do on their bikes. And not only that, it also extends south into some pine trees.

»Yeah. Thank you. So, um I'll quickly go over a little about me. Um I've lived in Cash Valley for nearly 10 years and um we now live in Nibbi and uh really love the community for to live out in Nibbi. Um I'm a former FPO force protection officer with the US Forest Service out of Benport Rock District in Oregon. um experience with inter agency collaborations, grant fund programs and projects, um laws out in Oregon. I actually uh patrolled and maintained motorized trail systems for dirt bikes and ATVs predominantly. Um I've been a lifelong mountain bike enthusiast along with being motorized enthusiasts. Um, but when it comes to bikes, my focus is on dirt jumps, free ride terrain, trials, and I begrudgingly ride trails to try and stay in shape so I don't run on the brut doing stuff that I really like to do. Um, I've been a participant and a contributor to many uh gem park build parties in Oregon, Montana, and Nevada. And I'm a believer in that providing kids and adults with exceptional recreation opportunities will benefit not only the individuals but the community as a whole. And um these days recreational resources and assets put a community on the map as being a desirable place to live in this time of booming popularity in outdoor recreation. Uh what makes Ander bike park so special and why it caught my attention. It's a fantastic landscape offers a great setting, great ambiance, and the pine trees you speak of are a huge part of that. And I really want to stress that's not something that you can just bid. It's something that's established. It takes years, decades for that kind of thing to come about. And um I have a great interest in preserving that. and and uh maintaining what it is and that is a great spot for bike riding. Uh it's easily accessible by residents throughout the valley as well as locals. a great proximity to established and planned bicycle routes adjacent to a wonderful park with a lot of things to potentially contribute to that park and um could be a regionally noteworthy community asset even though it's it's small in in its footprint. Uh it's a unique location and it's a rare occurrence to find those kinds of of things that you just can't build. And um it's potentially another addition to Italy's already outstanding character with some of the stuff that needs improvement. Um there's a lack of signage. So there's a lot of traffic. There's motorized traffic. That's one of one of the problems. Um not that I'm opposed to motorized activities whatsoever. Um it's just that that is a place. there's a there's a house adjacent to it and it's it's more of a spot for not motorized activity. Uh it has poor poor flow. Um it just wasn't it wasn't built properly I guess you could say and I could elaborate that on take too much time to kind of go and get nitpicky about what it takes to to fix that. But um just to skim over some of the stuff, some of the corner BMS um need to be properly constructed and that's mostly shovel work. Um there's no regular maintenance. Um regular maintenance is a commitment that needs to be made to this this kind of situation. Um ambiguous regulations. I think a lot of people that are riding um gas powered dirt bikes, ATVs, electric dirt bikes, and that stuff, I think they're just not aware of what the rules are. So, it's pretty important if there's going to be something like that that there is opportunity for users to be informed of what the rules are. Um, and then another other problem that's issue is ambiguous directionality, meaning it's a loop, but nobody really knows which direction to go on the loop. of traffic going both ways at all times. Uh these are all solvable problems and they could transform the bike park into a true local. Uh some of some of the guiding principles of what makes a great bike park. Bike parks ought to be inclusive and progressive. Um inclusive meaning uh perhaps it's used by multitude of user groups. know there's been some interest expressed in that area from from radiocontrolled car enthusiasts and um I think that that's not problematic and it can be designed to to accommodate multiple user groups. Um obstacles are far less dangerous when well constructed and maintained. Uh big jumps built well are safer than small jump small jumps that are built poorly. Um, that may seem counterintuitive, but there's a lot of evidence for that. Uh, quality over quantity. The fewer good jumps is better than many bad jumps. And there's there's in my assessment and opinion, there's too many obstacles there that just aren't well constructed. Uh, signage is important. Uh, again, I brought that up. Riders must have the opportunity to be informed. And, uh, maintenance schedule is very important. and and I propose two build parties a year, one in the spring and one in the fall. I believe that would be plenty to maintain that park to a high degree. Um, and if anybody's aware of the Dirt Jump Park in Logan, which was a was was kind of a monumental achievement to have that built, but has unfortunately gone downhill. And I think that's there's a lot of reasons for that, but what it points out is that um it really is important that there's a commitment from the municipality that the the park is within in order to make sure it's maintained. And I and I know that's a collaboration with volunteers and all that, but it really needs to be a commitment. Uh some of the key goals of the project that I propose are uh clean slate redesign and improved directionality, shaping and flow. Improve signage to communicate park structure and regulations. Implementation of a progressive design that that uh presents terrain for everybody from the beginner the the three-year-old on his little little bike. Um what's it called?

»Striker bikes. Yeah. Thank you. Uh, strider bikes all the way up to and I think that intermediate riders would be acceptable as an upper level expert terrain is I think that goes kind of above and beyond what's what's really appropriate for that area. But I think beginner to intermediate and cater to everyone in between. uh commitment to long-term maintenance again um and that preserves safety and value of the investment and develop a recreational asset offering opportunity for community building and activities. Um, being at many of these build parties, it's amazing the camaraderie and community that's established when a group of people come out with shovels in their hands and they all get together and they aim for a common goal of of just doing a little clean up on a place. Um, that that that's huge. And and I know that there's another bike installation going on that's nearby that's a little more of a permanent installation, but I propose that Andrew Bike Park be a a smaller, tighter knit opportunity for people to to actually work together in a, you know, kind of a a bianual, I guess you'd say, schedule of maintenance. Um, and and a lot of those build parties that I've been part of, many of those people didn't even ride that train. just showed up to help because they enjoyed the the community and support. So, it's it's pretty neat. Um, I want to go through some pictures real quick. I just went and visited friends and family in Boseman, Montana, which is nearly a sister city to Logan who I like Logan. But uh Boseman, Montana has recently completed what is an amazing effort I think as far as a city sanctioned bike park with Durhams and it's much bigger than the Ander Park area, but it is absolutely proof that with collaboration and support from a city that a really amazing area can be built. And I want to point out specifically here too that they built this dirt jump that you can you can kind of see but pretty large area immediately adjacent to a long stx track.

»And so you know I think one of one of the potential arguments against developing the ended park could be that um within a block there's another huge bike installation going on. But this right here is proof that like when they're two different flavors, um, they serve two different purposes. And, and I think that's a lot behind why they did this. The BMX track is fundamentally different than a dirt jump as far as who it attracts, but there is overlap. So, people enjoy both. Um, but it's an opportunity for children. Children and adults play. This is an overhead view. I just want to show that there is a they're they're right next to each other. Um, and like I said, I would I would invite anybody with more questions to get together with me and I can show you the pictures and we can see them a little better if you're interested. Uh, so go through the the current configuration real quick and then the and all the different proposed layouts. So the current configuration right now if you follow the orange lines upper upper left is a square where the the big starting hill is and then the orange line just represents a nondirectional route that you take around and you wrap around the trees. Um what I'm proposing is um starting at the same place but have directionality that goes counterclockwise with both a the white being for little kids and small children, the green being for beginners and the blue being for intermediate. And I've gone out there with a tape measure. I've gone out there with local bike riders in the community and um had had brainstorming sessions, taken notes, taken measurements, and there's room to do all of this and have something that's directional. And then the orange again wraps back up to the starting hill. Uh the blue and the trees I suggest could be used to put picnic tables in there for parents and people to hang out as long as well as low-eed obstacles that benefit from the shade that those trees offer. And that's within the current boundaries right now. And there's just one more here that there's an area uh currently covered in gravel. Um that could potentially be large enough to have a pump track or an RC car track or something like that. So I don't know if that's open for development, but I wanted to include that just in case. In conclusion, Ander Bike Park has tremendous potential to be an asset to our community. It just needs the attention of a dedicated team, city, and volunteer level to be transformed into a bonafide multi-use bike park. This is a very special location that needs only a bit of refinement on top of its unique character. And the consensus seems to agree. Hander Bike Park offers an inherently advantageous location right for a great recreational opportunity. the next one's trash. Craig,

»thank you so much, Craig. I I think I'll just share a bit about the assessments rec committee um had regarding Craig's presentation. First of all, I'll say this, we're blessed to have someone like Craig with his expertise regarding, you know, bike park experiences and we're we're thrilled to have him in the community. Um, so first of all, I I also feel like it's has been said already in the the council meeting that there's definitely a passion in our community um for volunteerism, for helping and serving one another. And uh I've learned from experience that when we plug in a passion and give them the space uh that amazing things can happen. So uh just quickly some notes from um the parks and rec committee assessment. Um, obviously there is a bike park plan for Nibi City Center Park, formerly known as Virginia Park. Uh, there's funding for that. Uh, much of that park is asphalt and that's intentional. Rod and I did some research on bike parks and felt that um it's important to have a space that is lowmaintenance that um allows for an extended period of of activity um that that asphalt allows. So I I think we can represent that the the committee agrees that um Ender Park can certainly use some improvement or some optimization uh as proposed by Craig. Uh it is a great space. Uh certainly needs some fine-tuning. I know that when we did a youth survey for a parks and rec committee master plan, uh there was great interest in in buying parks. When it was first installed, I I was a bit skeptical, but there's definitely a proofing concept. There's plenty of activity in that space. Uh definitely agree with uh the the point on signage that needs to happen. Love the directionality. Um, in talking with Rod, some of his considerations are maintenance. Um, it it would be critical to either allow in the budget, um, some funding for city staff and or making sure volunteers are committed to do that. I I feel that Craig has that passion and we could certainly build that. Um, and if if it didn't work out, if volunteers didn't maintain it, we could start over with something else. Uh, was his assessment. Um, also I I I think it's fantastic that Craig is willing to look at and consider uh multiple user groups. And I I do agree that uh when you have people contributing to a space, there's ownership. We could talk about the royalty program. We could talk about the pollinator garden is a great example of children's theater. Um when people are passionate about something, they they put a lot into it. Um let's see. I I also agree that although there's a bit of separation in terms of the neighborhood, we could connect these two bike park experiences. I do appreciate having the park there for events. We've actually utilized that space for a number of movies in the park. I know that uh youth will often enjoy the bike park while their sibling is playing a game in the athletic field. So, those are just some of the thoughts. Uh we're thrilled to have Craig as a part of this presentation. I hope that you'll uh take full consideration of what he's presenting.

»Thank you, Chair.

»Thanks, Chad. So, as Chad mentioned, um I got to hear about this at a parks and rec committee meeting committee was excited about it and by vote ask the council to consider this. So, I'll turn it to the council for questions for comments. It's a workshop. We're not doing votes. We just want to talk about stuff. Nathan, please.

»Yeah, appreciate it. Um just some comments that um my daughters and I used to read about park quite a bit when it was first done and we kind of stopped for the reasons that had been mentioned maintenance and safety and not knowing where to go and those kind of things. So I'm excited that more people are interested. Um I also hate that nobody has to like we have I didn't own until recently a vehicle that could help me get my bike. So, I had to bike to good trails. And so, by the time I got there, I was like, I don't like biking, right? So, it's been nice to have something to even introduce kids or or just something to as myself just to go play with a little bit. So, I like the idea. I like the proposal. Um, I guess what I would ask is if if we're looking at redoing this park, one thing that I'd like is for us to consider um just involving the homes directly to the east there. um as I've talked to them over the years, there's been past um suggestions of helping them with privacy that they feel have been unmet. And I this would be an opportunity to maybe make sure that we're not making that worse.

»Um so to to that's I think that's the only thing I really wanted to to bring up today is if we go and look into this red, we engage that to a degree.

»Okay. Yeah.

»Thank you, Nathan. All right.

»Uh so I think you mentioned redesigning the jumps. uh what like what additional resources or money or equipment do you foresee needing from the city in order to make that reality? Um that's a great question. I think that as in terms of equipment um probably some number of dump truckloads of soil and we're not talking huge amounts. You know, I think overall this is a pretty low budget project compared to compared to a lot. So, um and then, uh skidspear would be useful. Um and and then you know something like half a dozen volunteers or something on that board on top of that would really be able to hammer this out in pretty quick fashion. So, um, as far as the the build parties I speak of or that I propose in this spring and fall, I think 6 to 12 volunteers would be highly effective as far as the maintenance goes. Um, and then there is the option to I, you know, I'm kind of the initial proposal is is do this with with dirt. Um, there's also options to build wood features which I think would be pretty neat. It's a little bit difficult for me to just off the cuff estimate the cost of that. Um, but that would involve some amount of lumber. Um, just depending on, you know, how far we wanted to take that and then, you know, probably I assume the city would want qualified builders to at least oversee that. You know, I I think one of the one of the challenges you can face with this when you don't have such a permanent installation like the other bike park that's going to be asphalt is you you do have to be careful that um unauthorized or people aren't going out there and taking the liberty to change features or build new features, that kind of thing. So, hope that answers your question.

»Just one followup. Um, are you foreseeing are you thinking like if you could if we went ahead with this you would like to do it the spring or what's your timeline?

»Yeah, I think spring would be great timing. I mean, it it certainly helps when when there's moisture in the soil and and and you know, the construction activities kind of ramping up again and um or you know, maybe I maybe take advantage of the law like that as far as moving dirt and stuff, but I think getting started in the spring would be would would give me time to come up with a specific cohesive plan and you know, draw a map of exactly how to do it as he saw he had a proposed round layout but it's pretty general. So

»if you don't mind me jumping in a comment from Rod Elwood our parks director at parks and rec committee was we have plenty of dirt. You can see it filed in lots of places around Steve Lisar with works directors nodding in agreement. we have plenty of dirt. And so I was I was actually gonna ask, you know, like our next step and maybe I'll just go ahead and propose it if council says, "Yeah, this seems like something we want to go with. Maybe we put Craig if you're willing as a volunteer designer consultant with your experience and also Rod Elwood and also Tom Dickinson. So that'll be allocating time of staff to look at a concept with Craig and come up with the budget and cut file, you know, what it what where the division of labor is between city staff and between citizens and and so on and so forth. And then we bring that back to the council as a proposal, as a funded proposal um to talk about how to get this thing done. Does that sound like a good next step? you talked to Rosar and our city engineer Tom Dickinson who's had to be out of town tonight. I don't know if you've met Tom before, but yeah, he'd love to be you on this.

»And I and I will say too, I spoken spoken enough with Rod and Chad to know that um they're great guys and I really enjoy any, you know, any of the time we work together on this, you know, just in the its initial stages, but I'd be excited to work with these guys.

»And Justin, you're supervisor. You're the supervisor of these people. So, thumbs up. Okay. at least on this planning stage. It's great that you live just north of this.

»So,

»so you can just supervise it from your window.

»Yeah.

»Um, no, that's a good point you bring up too. You know, that's that can be discussed earlier, but it it is I think advantageous that I do live across the street. Then when it comes down to how do we monitor and control and make sure that to um you know keep keep people within the boundaries following the rules how do we go about that and I think that's a discussion to be had but um it certainly certainly part

»yeah well above all always keep yourself safe don't

»see

»I think it's a great idea the bike park came that one from Shawn Dustin's son he came like you and had an idea of making a track there. So I think this is a great evolution of his ideas and how it's evolved into something great. So thank you for your interest.

»Yeah and it is neat. I mean it's it's really neat that you think it's just you know like I said needs needs a little bit of work. So great.

»You said you didn't want a motion. You just want like a thumbs up if

»Yeah. If you I mean Justin can direct activities of city staff to spend time with Craig and work out the you know concept of a budget uh cost to the citizens um based on Craig's design. And if if council tells Justin that's good use of city staff's time, I think that's sufficient. I don't think we we'll need a vote to allocate when we actually get down to allocating money for it.

»And it sound like most it's just going to be time.

»Yeah, it's employee time, but

»so they're working on that instead of turn to Justin. I think that this is a really neat opportunity and I think we should be very cognizant of that it'll be if we go forward with this it'll be two bike parks two two pump parks that we're working on. Um, one is largely funded thanks to grants that we pursued, which is the asphalt. A lot of the wooden features Craig's talking about, designed by a a prof a professional bike park company. You've seen the you've seen the plans. We're receiving about a million dollars. citizens are receiving about a million dollars to to build that from Utah outdoor rep and and I I I see this I hope we all see it as complimentary right there's there's two different reasons to go uh two two there are different reasons to go to one park versus the other part and you might do one for a while and go to the other one and have a safe way to get there as you mentioned you know Nathan ride your bike have a safe way to get there and safe way to go from one place to another and on your bike and uh I think it's a a great thing for all ages and all members of the family. Let's just make them complement one another instead of compete with one another.

»Absolutely.

»Yeah.

»Anyone else?

»Nathan. Yeah, there was a parks and master plan committee and stuff. you guys together and try to kind of identify where things should go. And Craig, I I encourage you uh there's places I identified in that community of where something similar to this could go in nibbly if we wanted to keep making that. Uh so I'd love to to meet up and chat about what that might look like and stuff like that. But as we're getting further along the process, I would encourage us the parks and rights committee to even make sure we um involve youth maybe Mr. Dustin's because he started this just people like that that will be using it. Yeah.

»Youth councils organization. Yeah. I think that when you get volunteers and kids out there building it, they look out for it. It's pretty cool. Now they're invested in the the asset and they get top line, not just screw

»I'd love to talk more, too. So,

»Nathan, so I'm clear. Are you thinking of other potential locations addition?

»Okay. Yeah. So, let's Can we Can Can we talk Can we have Nathan and and maybe Rod could go as well? Sure.

»Right. Chad, you have something for us.

»I sgest we all the city and

»Okay. If All right. Anything else, council? Great. Thanks for being able citizen and being willing to help us get this done.

»Yeah, excited to be here. Thank Thank you for your words. I appreciate it and thank you for time all of you and everyone here.

»Okay. Next, uh council, this is uh ordinance 2531. This would be amending parking regulations for non-motorized equipment. Um, we've seen this before. And so, Levi, do you have Yes, you have additional background for us.

»Just a little bit. Yeah. And and Evan's also here. Um, he was signing out in the back there, but I think that was the only place to sit when he came in. So, I'm not gonna

»if Yeah. If if any questions come up, I I I feel like, you know, he's he's he can speak to enforcement of that. Uh, just just clarifying. Um I think I think it was a little bit ambiguous in in the last discussion regarding state code and city code. So the the state does have code regarding uh that that restricts parking in in certain areas that does apply everywhere. It's not just like on state highways that and that and so we can enforce those those rules under our code. However, uh just to clarify that the the city attorney suggested that it it would help to have a statement that also refers back to state code. It's okay if there overlapping provisions. Um really they both they both apply. So um that was that was clarified. Uh do you do you want me to go into any additional detail or kind of reminding what exactly what's in front of the council or or do you

»how much how much do I hear about this?

»That's all I have to update. I don't know if you have any other questions on that various times. So let's see. We went this in part without asking Levi to clarify that nibly city state code kind of thing, but it was also just to let it I think marinate a little bit. Carrot, you certainly had some some comments and we appreciate those. So, the question to the council is do you want more background information than than what Levi gave you as far as an update? We also talked about amending some of the verbiaging. Nathan had actually put some

»Yeah. Yeah. And I can I can scroll to those if if you want to discuss that. I I do have that on the screen if you want to um discuss I think it was relating to time of day primarily. Is that right Nath? Nathan.

»Yeah. can make a state code. Um I know we want to leave one couple trailers on the streets during the day, but we have to enforce state code. We can't enforce less than and they do not allow for it to be done during the day. It's a reference real quick specific to it's 411A 2011. It's I don't know it's hard to read any that's that's part of the purpose of maybe having it all so that people can understand it. Um it's well it talks about automated driving systems. It talks about all kind of stuff, but in the end it says no off-road vehicles, highway vehicles, vessels or park model recreation vehicles in the state unless it has been registered in accordance with this chapter 2205 vehicles. So, it's kind of hard to understand which is why we wanted to clarify with our own city code. And so that I'm clear, Deon, you're you're you know what we need, council, if if I could ask for it via motion. The motion could include I'm going to ask for a motion uh adopt or not adopt as presented. You can make any motion you want, but then that would be a great time to talk about amendments. so that we all know exactly you know what is being considered by the council.

»We'll make a motion a motion to approve ordinance 2531 as presented.

»Okay, have a motion and a second from K to approve 2531 as presented. Now let's get into the nitty-gritty and talk about amendments and so on. I'll bring up the ordinance language. So, if you want to get in into that, you can. And if we want to bring

»Nate suggestion back back up for any consideration, if there's any elements there you want to discuss. But I can scroll through any anything here. I did I did add we did um add this provision that just refers to state code just to clarify that. And maybe talking back on the trailers. So we're saying that if the trailer is unhook and it's on um by the curb wouldn't give them a ticket during the daytime.

»Yes, that's correct. Any unregistered vehicle. So some boats don't require registration. Personal autograph trailers don't require registration because when they're coupled to the vehicle, they go under that registration. It's when they're uncoupled and left on the street that that becomes against the law. And that's where the safety issues came in with those kids that got injured last year trailers. Their injuries were made on all night.

»One was at night, one was during the day. He was going too fast on his ebike. He couldn't control it.

»His fault. No. Okay, let's keep the conversation up here.

»Yes. So, most single axle trailers, if it's properly owned, they don't need to be licensed. And so, those will be okay. And if it's a double axle, like a dump trailer, if it's licensed, then it would still be okay.

»If it's licensed, if it has a license plate, it can be on the street. If it does not have a license plate, it cannot be on the street. It's coupled to a vehicle. However, the the the language in the city code does prohibit non-motorized equipment parking. And the way I read it, Evan, you can correct me if I'm wrong. It it it it u

»that that wouldn't that would include whether it's registered or not. If it's not

»snow piles being taken off mean blades,

»just the blade.

»Yeah, just the blade. So that would be more restrictive than state code if we wanted to loosenize. I think we could, but but we're we're recommending we're suggesting that really any non-motorized equipment would be um prohibited. So if somebody rims a skidster and leaves it on the side of the road for just during the daytime, then would you give them a technique?

»Um, it depends that that's when it becomes officer discretion. If I see that there's current work going on on property, Justin and I have discussed this at like we're willing to use our discretion. Hope it's not there for a few weeks. Yeah. Just making sure we're just not I appreciate that. We're going to give it some dog.

»And you'll always get a warning first as well. We won't go straight to citation.

»Okay.

»What are we calling those now?

»Parking the warnings for everything.

»Courtesy notice. What's the difference between a registered vehicle and a nonreg?

»So, this is a time for the council to have discussions. We've had public hearings on this. Um, if the council wants the question answer, don't have to allow it, but it's my job to keep the discussion focused with the council given that we've had public hearings on this before. Up to you, If the council has that same question, then ask it if you if you know the answer to that at all. this I'm not sure this fixes the issue I still had last time and that is if somebody's working on the yard and they remove the trailer with gravel or something and they uncouple it because they forgot they got to go back to Home deep little lumps for heaven and forget for pain and they come back and they have citation people I I I'm totally on board with at night because it is a safety hazard there's no reflective you know and we all talked about scenarios and there's trailers with no lights no reflective at night in the street definitely a safety hazard and when they're working to try and either put in a yard or doing something at our house if it's uncoupled for a couple hours or whatever. You're not willing to be going down that road where they're getting a citation. That's not the kind of city that HOA management in my opinion. You have a amendment to offer or no sounds like it's state code. It's not like I can change state. Well,

»but I don't like it.

»I mean, I I think you should offer the amendment and the council wants to adopt their amended resolution and we need to go talk to our attorney after the fact, that's fine. The attorney has reviewed this as proposed. Yes.

»Doesn't mean the attorney had obviously the attorney hasn't reviewed amendments made from the bench from this bench, but we can certainly have him do it. It sounds like if they can see his work, that's where the discretion comes. We can see, you know, I don't like that show. That's why I'm ashamed. I don't know.

»I appreciate that. I know he would, but will the next guy or the guy 10 years from now be the same? That's tough.

»Uh, I'll give you an amendment. um

»amendment to adopt uh the language that I proposed in the last meeting which is on the slide. I'll put it up in section four, which basically restricts the time of day that non-motorized equipment would be allowed on the street to the same requirements of when essentially headlights are required or visibility is not within 500 ft, which is state vote. Also, I'll second that. Okay, we have a motion to amend. We'll talk about the amendment.

»So, as I read what I was able to real fast and second,

»we have a motion to amend. It's on the first paragraph from Nathan and a second Well, you've got a recording, too. And a second from Norm.

»Thank you. Yeah, I just um I quickly tried to read what you were referencing uh and you also mentioned uh that we would I don't think it's there. So I think that may call for a second or another meeting later or like you said pass it and ask attorney. Um the other thing is you mentioned that uh the non-motorized equipment does not receive a as written currently except for my amendment does not receive a warning. it's it says immediate compounded and I I remember that we had a discussion about how long that process actually takes and that's kind of why we didn't want to essentially takes more than two weeks uh if you did a even just the empoundment. So, uh, I think that's why I'm making the the change to at least the non-motorized. Um, and then I think we figure out state code and if it still works, which I appreciate and I I'll have to look into that more. So, okay. Discussions more on the amendment. It makes sense to me, Nathan. I appreciate you're offering it. If there's questions about whether we're out of whack with state code, then uh you know, we can solve that after the fact as well.

»Yeah, I think I think if if we find that we do need to enfor that that basically this is less restrictive than what state code is and we we ought to be enforcing state code, we can we can communicate that to the council. But

»the question I would ask the attorney now, I mean, that's one of the beauties of council proposing amendments, voting on amendments, and then adopting uh drafts, adopting ordinances. We go to the attorney and say, can we do this? Think about state code. Can we do this? And it's hard to get that review in front of uh amendments made from the bench. So I think the process is for

»Nathan.

»I will point out one potential conflict I think we also need to ask about. So in section five where it talks about the parking of undisturbed vehicles. I don't remember in this code or elsewhere in our code if it defines vehicle but there may be conflict there of for you. I would love to input is get down the line. Is this a I do you know what should be licensed and registered like we alluded to as far as a trailer and some of these kind of things and what shouldn't. And so these two seem to be a little bit in conflict if you see what I'm talking about that a vehicle could be considered a trailer that is a single axle that doesn't require registration. And our five is saying that that's not allowed. But are we okay with it with what we just amended in number four? Right. So if I'm clearly understanding that there are trailers for example that do not require registration and licensing. So, does that mean on five that we're disallowing smaller trailers because they're unregistered vehicles, but we are allowing larger trailers if they're licensed. Is that the point?

»Yeah. And I remember before specifically references uncoupled trailers as a matter of

»Yeah. Um, in in my mind, at least just a quick glance at it, I think five is an additional re if if if adopted, if you if you change for the way that you motioned and five is adopted, I think both would apply. So yes, you could park a registered uncoupled trailer, but you could not park an unregistered uncoupled trailer on the street during that time period.

»Uh, right. Like that's

»during any time period.

»During any time period unless you change who you are.

»Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. And I think one of one of the reasons for that again going back to kind of some of the purposes of this ordinance is the enforcability. We don't know if it's unregistered. We have no way to track whose trailer that is. we can go through the empoundment process and that's really the only way to do anything about it. Um except maybe knock on the person's door and ask if it's theirs and if they can ask nicely if they can, you know, move it, but it's not necessarily that person's trailer. We we spent over a month with the sheriff's department, one trailer, figure out who owned it, where it came from,

»right?

»One day it just disappeared.

»Yeah.

»Was this a trailer that should have been legally licensed and registered? No. Right.

»It's there for a long time. And we and we have and we have a restriction. For example, you can't park for more than 48 hours at a time. That's relatively easy to enforce um if it's registered. But if it's not, then like Evan said, it could take weeks and weeks to try to figure out who's that who's whose vehicle it is, whose trailer it is. And and just clarification as currently written no matter what it is on the street from November to April those time frames.

»Right. But again if if it's unregistered that's difficult to to enforce that.

»But if it's unregistered don't we call it and report it abandoned and then they come and hollow out within 48 hours?

»No. So the sheriff's department has a 7-day process that they have to go through. That's where we got to the two weeks on top of on top of the process that I have to go through warning then for a citation and then pound it ends up being in the street for almost two weeks. So this would this would cut the time frame down from the two weeks to six to seven days. to vote on the motion.

»Let's uh if the council's willing, let's vote on the amendment. Is there any opposition to voting on the amendment? Let's make some process.

»Sorry, to be clear, is this this is four? I just wanted to put it up on the screen. If

»it was

»it was replacing four with that language.

»Yeah. What it was

»just so that you just so you know what you're voting on this context.

»Yeah. And that's there's actually two paragraphs in Nathan's amendment. One currently one in four one paragraph and four correct they about formatting. They can all be one multisection. I'm just making sure we get all the words. So this is this amendment really related to hours that it would be allowed in the daylight. Okay. Are we ready to vote on that amendment? Any objection? Seeing none, those in favor of the amendment, please say I. I. Any opposed? Okay. So now we have an amended motion. Excellent. Now we still have this sort of thing about the conflict now between four and five.

»Yeah. I mean I don't know if it's a conflict. I think I think they're they're overlapping. I I I think on the one hand you're you're limited with all of these different these uh vehicles to parking them at um you can't park them at night, but if it's unregistered, you can't park it regardless.

»Right. Right.

»So

»So So it's not a conflict. It's an or condition. Four stands on its own.

»Yeah.

»And in addition, it's also I just said and instead of or but either one of these are

»Yeah, I think it's a problem.

»I just think it if it hard or becomes a problem, fetch it, but needs more clarity. Yeah, I my own thought on five and I understand the problem of um dealing with an unregistered vehicle that's legally unregistered. I just it seems strange to me that somehow we're more we're less tolerant of small trailers being detached and parked on the curb because they're legally unregistered than than we are with big trailers. Maybe that's fine. But it if a big trailer can be parked on the curb, it seems like a small trailer could be parked on the curb. like you're looking for the little guys.

»Well, I have a I am a little guy a small trailer opener.

»Yeah,

»but I you can always license a single axle. They come with titles. You just don't know.

»You can Yeah, most of us don't license trailers. You don't have to.

»Fair enough. It gives you the license to park it on the street.

»Gives you the license to park it on the street, right?

»Some of the time maybe. license plates that in my humble opinion, I'm not going to get off track.

»I feel the same way. That's why I brought it up. But I I guess I'm willing to let some discretion and some enforcement dictate whether this is good or bad, which is what we do with all of it. Well, council, I'm going to back off a little bit if if you want to. I mean, I think the amendment is good. Thank you. Um, I think we've talked about that or four and five is an oral condition. Um, if you want to pass this, pass it. And if you want to continue it and now we have something concrete to take to the attorney for review, let the attorney look at it and then uh get his opinion and put it on a future agenda. It's your choice. So, pass it or continue or a second. I'll get a motion. Uh, that'd be fantastic with what you see. I see no objection to voting. I will ask for a vote. This is final. Cheryl, will you call the role for us, please? Council member

»in favor.

»Council member in council member

»in favor.

»Council member in favor. Council member

»in favor.

»Thank you.

»Five in favor. None opposed. Did you guys sit alphabetically on you just calling them the way they're sitting? Oh no. Yeah.

»Did we randomize it according to the

»Okay, that motion passes. Thanks for your efforts. Thanks for your work. Uh Levi, you'll follow up with the attorney. See if we did anything we can't do, right?

»Yeah. Yeah.

»Uh let's get into uh 7.04 modifications to weed grass and brush height restrictions. Uh you've seen this before. We have additional I don't see any additional background refreshing my memory. Do you have anything else to offer to us?

»Nothing new here.

»Okay.

»Happy to explain it or feel any questions you have. I'd be ready to take a motion and we can discuss it after that. Okay. Motion to approve ordinance 333. We

»have a motion from K and a second from Nathan to for approval as presented. Let's talk about it. I'm still not sure that we need this. Is there obviously there was enough of a need that we got it here to this point. We just hate to rack people up for having leaves that are a foot tall unless that's 12 ft tall.

»Yeah, but it sounds like we're here for a reason. Do you mind just clarifying why?

»Yeah, I mean if if if you want to go with a different height than 12 in, then that's that's up to you. I think that was a balance of where you're getting into issues of fire safety from some of the research we did. U a lot of communities do four or six in and that's quite a bit higher than that. Uh our current ordinance is really difficult to enforce because it doesn't define it and we feel like this is this is an improvement there. It's not we don't feel like it's going too far. It does focus I think in the first training there was some direction that let's focus on issues of safety, visibility, um fire safety, those those kind of things and not not so much on aesthetics. We feel like this this ordinance balances that pretty well. So and and you know our interest as staff is something that's enforceable. We do frequently get complaints on, oh, there's there's these weeds that are just way too high and they're growing over there and we we just struggle with, okay, can we enforce this? Can maybe we can, maybe we can't. And this would just help it be more clear to our residents of what was allowed and what's not allowed and and then a able to to follow up on those things. It's pretty frustrating to those complainants when we can't give them a very solid answer on whether what their neighbor is doing is is allowed or not.

»Right? So, the answer to Norm's question in a nutshell is we're here talking about this because we get complaints,

»but we don't we don't do we get complaints that they're over 12 in or do we just get complaints that they're too tall? I don't know if they get that specific.

»It depends. We had it said certain height, but it never explain the height.

»We got a fireman here. So, we did

»I'll talk in weeds without being a fire hazard. Come to the bench.

»Yeah. the glitches and fire happened but um there's no I don't think there's code that

»yeah it it was it was primarily based on practices of other cities and and but yeah the fire code that there is something on wildland urban interface and this does reference that as well.

»Yeah. So that is a code. Um but

»we this came to light if you go through the roundabout you go out to the highway the weeds are so tall you have to pull out into the term lane to see and you can't do anything about it because they're not obnoxious weeds.

»Pull out at 891.

»Yeah. Yeah.

»Okay. But but this will be excluded because that is ad blamed, right? So it still won't help us.

»So I'll I'll bring that up. This is a question I had. So it says agricultural production, not necessarily zoned and and so that's u that's like the intentional growth of something, right?

»Or maybe they're intentionally growing

»weeds. Yeah. But not an option. It's weeds.

»That's only your impossible.

»Well, you've been there. So there's a couple of like definitions that I would love to hear

»your thoughts on how you would interpret that to enforce. Right. So if you bring up the origins

»Yeah, I'll bring it up.

»Give me a second here.

»Section Basically says it's unlawful to to grow things 12 in higher or more no matter where they are, no matter what it is in the city. it it's uncultivated and uncultivated and that's the first definition. What does uncultivated mean when you try to build a course?

»We don't know why we're

»taking a stab at it.

»Yeah. So, I'll make a substitute motion to continue. uh so that we can ask a couple more questions. Second have a motion to continue and a second. So it's debatable because the motion the motion that it refers to was debatable. Uh do you have others that we need?

»Huh? Yeah. To direct that subs.

»Well, I think it's I'm allowing it's part of the debate. Thank you.

»Um, yes. So, uncultivated uh is a big thing to figure out so you guys know what you're enforcing. Um, and then the other one was agricultural production. I think those will be needed to define so that you know clearly what to do. Well, maybe I I should read this closer, but does this refer to anywhere on that lot or those acres of land or do we have so much frontage from the road or um

»we do have frontage from the road or public property? So,

»yeah, five five feet from any structure, sidewalk, trail, public roadway.

»Okay.

»For that high limitation. So my question on that spot was whether those weeds violated the clear sight safety triangle. And could we have required them to be cut down because they were blocking the view according to another ordinance which is how much clear sight you need at an intersection?

»Potentially. Um, we have seen that our clear view triangle is pretty limited. It's 12 It's 25 foot triangle from the the pavement and in those areas that have wide arch strips. I mean, it it almost doesn't even get into the those some of those areas. So, potentially we could we could look at that, but but it may not apply. to some of those examples.

»And so if it's five feet, isn't that in the rideway anyway? So if we wanted to, we could just go mow or chop them down.

»Uh usually the rideway is one foot behind the sidewalk. Um it if it's a I mean a lot of times we have it more than five feet. If it's you know those areas that don't have any sidewalk, we got some additional space there. But

»okay,

»we can't uh we can't mold private.

»Yeah. Yeah. But we we can privately

»Yeah. Yeah. That's absolutely that's why I was Yeah. Okay.

»Yeah. So my concern is the 5T or a foot or two beyond sidewalk. Right. So you talked about roads, but another great example is in between Park Avenue, there's a sidewalk there that's just you can't walk on it, right? Because of the growth.

»Yes.

»North of the sidewalk. So and this would allow us to enforce that if it's uncultivated and not agricultural. So that's that

»which I think is a that's a right step. Correct.

»Well, I I think though that five the five foot limitation is regardless of whether it's cultivated or not. It it that I guess that's what it's saying is we're we're not we're not regulating the agricultural production but except within 5t of those those areas. Right.

»So I think that exception gets away from what's unpultivated and so on.

»It's within 5t of so we take care of it. I think Firefly Nature Park looks really cool, by the way, with low cuts next to the sidewalk and then higher stuff out in the nature park. I think it I think it works great. Um, the motion is to continue. I'll get my digs in. I think I think 12 in is too short. So tell the council that amend that later if you want. We can take an amendment. There's a motion to continue on table. You can make a suggestion of a different height 24 in I mean yeah it'll don't need to be too need to worry about this. My suggestion if fire had a clear there was a clear fire hazard and could be clearly defined as a as a fire hazard that's fine but maybe that 6 in and so we're not talking about fire hazard here we're talking about how high can it be most of it is for the line of sight and you can look over a foot you can look over two feet

»yeah so to your point that makes sense

»and I think I'll jump on that too if if we don't have enough um safety triangle we get the job done. We need to work on that ordinance to fix the safety triangle. We don't fix the the view of safety triangle with a weed ordinance that applies everywhere. We fix it where it needs fixed.

»Yeah.

»Just tell us the number and we're we're good with that.

»We just would like something that's enforceable. I would uh Justin if you will talk about this on Monday for sure. Um let's get our city engineer looking at sight triangle ordinance.

»Yes.

»Thanks.

»This actually relates to another item on the agenda that um the fence ordinance as well. I'll I'll bring it up at that time.

»We have a motion to continue. Any objection to voting on the motion to continue? Seeing none, those in favor of continuing, please say I.

»Any opposed? Don't see any.

»Uh Levi, do you understand the concerns? It's not

»my my understanding is we just are we just need to get a definition for uncultivated and agricultural production. That's what I heard as far as our charge here.

»Now I remember it. Okay. Thank you. Okay, we'll work on that.

»Let's talk about external ADU billing. Um, we had a Is that where we're at on the agenda?

»Thank you.

»We had a workshop on this. We gave staff direction and we now have a ordinance for you to consider. It's first reading, but we did do a workshop. Can wave second reading if you want or we can bring it back for second. If I may, we cannot pass this for first reading. We do not have we have not had a public hearing now.

»So we don't wait the second reading.

»Nate,

»make a motion to approve for first reading.

»We have a motion from Nathan and a second from Gary first reading. Um I think it's worth talking about what you did based on input from council.

»Yeah. So, we came to a workshop because there was a couple of conflicting points in the code where I talked about external accessory dwelling units. Those are tiny homes or homes that are 1,200 square ft in size. I believe that's their maximum that are built on people's property. There's a lot of state code going around about those are just starting to gain popularity. We really don't have very many in city I believe eight seven eight around there. And so we just wanted to get ahead of it before it was an issue, before it was a problem. Make sure that staff had clear direction on what the council wanted us to do. And then we would make sure and clean up the code to reflect that. We'd have direction to not charge utility fees such as water, sewer, storm water, standard utility fees will not be charged to both the home and the accessory unit. So two places in the code that kind of grade that buzzy for staffing interpret have been corrected and fixed and made very clear that those accessory external accessory dwelling units will not be charged those utility fees. So the two places Okay, first reading. This is the time to ask for clarification. Not necessarily make amendments or get into heavy discussions. You can if you want, but what do you think? Is there objection to voting for first reading? Okay. Don't see any of those. favor of passing this for first reading, bringing it back for second. Uh with without necessarily giving staff anything to do between first and second reading except schedule a public hearing. Those in favor of advancing to second reading, please say I.

»I. Any oppos? So all right. Um I'm going to suggest five minutes. Stand up. stretch your legs, get ready for the next item. Any objection? Thank you so back in session. Good night. And so the road is open now. We've been fully open month. A month. Okay. So, uh, do you want to talk about the resolution that you're proposing? I mean, I'll blame it on you, but I think we should at least talk. We have something specific to talk about. Yeah, resolution is up there on the board. You can just scroll down, Eva, to the bottom bullet. That'll sum it up. Uh oh, you don't.

»Uh so the intended resolution uh you'll notice is to uh replace the design or or mimic the design of the later phases uh of the mountable islands and go back and redo the ones the intersections noted there that were done in earlier phases. um with a budget amount for staff to be enabled to just make that decision um without having to ask us for quote or anything like that. Just a maximum. Um number two is to simply paint all of them like we have been doing. I just wanted to make sure that they felt authorized to do that. And then the third is to actually uh go out and get an independent engineer to do a warrant analysis for those uh two main intersections which have been brought up as possible four-way stops and to do it with an independent engineer or also a budget there. Um you'll notice that there's a vague timeline here. Um these things require certain atmospheric conditions as well as other things to actually be usable. And so I I basically give that power to city staff to make those decisions when it's well I don't think we could pour concrete tomorrow and be proud of the job that's was done if it's a snow. So I'll desire this probably later. Uh but I just wanted to make sure that they had the enabling power from us as the political body to make these decisions. We felt they were the right ones.

»Okay. Thanks. question. If if this uh were to pass, do we need to open the budget to come up with the funds or or

»we would?

»Yeah. There's there's some money in the budget uh that we passed 40,000 to

»to implement this. So, if the if the council passes this, this is also commitment to modify the budget

»uh to uh to to make this happen. I I think the council's probably good on their work to say, "Yeah, we want to spend this money. will modify the budget could be as June when we modify the existing budget and adopt the new budget. We don't do that hardly ever and Justin might want to put it on a agenda before that. But if if if this if council wants to move forward with this, you need to back it up, you know, in the budget.

»Thank you. Well, I had a couple questions, but I I was hoping Tom would be here because we talked a lot about phase five and then once that opened, we wanted to reevaluate because the malable malible ions and stuff, you know, were different and and I mean I lower the size there and I thought they were actually supposed to be moved back a little bit to create a little more space there, but they look like other than being lower, they still look exactly the same as all the other phases. And it was my understanding they were going to be lower and moved back. And I from my memory go the construction, but it was only moving them backward. It was to get the lip of the face closer to line with wall instead of out in front of the wall. That's my memory and I'd have to double check construction drawings.

»Okay. as that was all the questions I had is I mean I don't drive every day but people try to drive it every day since it opened you know been at least dozen times like apprec appreciated Nathan's like beat his driving cuz it did show some concerns that I had from the beginning like when he was driving that truck turned on and stuff in three phase five way. I haven't yet seen a car, you know, and all the times I've driven it. I haven't seen that to see if there's a conflict there or not. I mean, mom and I should have just driven it together and create our own.

»We've done this. Can I Can I see a We showed this video a year ago.

»Can you queue up the video, please? Phase on the stone bridge crossing. So, the the difficult crossing Right. This one.

»Yeah. So, let's let's play that. So, here comes a car from the east to the west. Another one from the west to the east. Here's a car that's going to try to make a right-hand turn into that. Pause it right there if you would, please. So, the comments that we heard when we played this before was, "See, it doesn't work because that car making the right hand turn has to turn directly into the path of another car." Uh my comment on that is that's the way intersections work. You know, you make a left-hand turn in a car that has to stop and yield to you or a right-hand turn or anything else. That's what a stop sign means. That that car's responsibility at the stop line is to give that intersection space to the car that has a right to it. And that certainly yeah if they if he ignores the stop sign there will be vehicles but I don't understand how we say that's an unsafe turn because if both of those cars were moving at the same time even though one of them has a stop sign they would collide. That's my comment and then we'll play the rest of it and I'll give you a chance to respond. Uh I think we'll see a lefthand turn next. Uh, he clears the intersection after stopping at the stop line. line,

»he touched it.

»Stop. This is the council's discussion. And so, have any of you ever like I asked the council when there's a a car that has the rightway in an intersection like waited for that car to clear and when they're cleared, you can actually take space that they're not in. I mean, Garrett, tell me how that intersection doesn't work. I'll put you on the spot.

»Okay. If you want to play it again, tell me how it doesn't.

»Part of it is the visibility. They don't they might hurt behind that line, then forward so they can see what's coming from the north bend down before they try to make that the visibility is a little bit limited. And so in in regards to your 25 foot triangle and stuff, the visibility and this happens in Logan. I mean, I'll tell you right now, everything in Main Street, like the tavern, you know what I mean? I drive that every single day because I work right there and you can't stop behind the thing because you can't see. You have to inch out to be able to see oncoming traffic. And like I said in previous meetings, I had less concern about the north and south. I drove this couple dozen times in the last couple weeks and I haven't had a lot of issues going north and south, but getting on and off of this street is very problematic the way that it is in my opinion.

»And so that's where and then one of the questions I wanted to bring up.

»Let's talk about visibility. What do you right? So, we've had the city engineer out there evaluating according to standards visibility for vehicles stopped at the stop line, not going out into the intersection, but stopping at the stop sign, stop sign, and the visibility is there. Now, people don't drive that way. And I've had conversations with many in this room say, "You can't expect us to stop at the stop lines." And I say, "Why not? That's state code. I have the the the reference in state code. Can you pull up my presentation and flip forward a bunch of slides? That's the one.

»This one?

»Yeah.

»Keep going farther farther farther to the end.

»This one or

»can you zoom?

»Let me just put it on the screen maybe. Or is that is that okay or

»be able to see that? Let's see.

»Except as told by a law enforcement officer, every interior of the vehicle approaching a stop sign shall stop at a clearly marked stop line. And before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, if there's not a clearly marked stop line, there's a stop lane and there's a sidewalk. And I'm frankly, and you can hear my voice, I'm frustrated about how we drive in Cash Valley that we blow right through the sidewalk. We blow right through the crosswalk and we put pedestrians at risk and we put uh bicycles at risk when we do that. We go right through. They put me at risk. I have nervous as myself when I'm driving on through street. I don't think people are going to stop. They have plenty of visibility. They just blow through the sidewalk. They go to a stop line and they barely get stopped before they're in my traffic. State code says that's what you're supposed to do. Now, do we expect people to follow state code?

»I'll ask.

»Yes.

»Thank you.

»And so, and they'll stop and they reach forward.

»Why do they reach forward?

»So they can see better.

»The visibility is there. It's been it's been established by someone who knows the ASHTO and visibility vehicle codes that the visibility is there some you know and there's a difference in my opinion in engineering and reality and I know we're supposed to engineer for reality but that doesn't always happen and we have multiple examples throughout the best in that case and which is why the codes are always changing. Just like we change our ordinances as we see an issue, we go, "Okay, well, that didn't work like it was supposed to. Let's modify." Why do we expect people to drive the speed limit? Because that's the sign that says that's the speed limit. They don't speeds on 1200 west where we have traffic calming between 34 and 30 and some either 34 and 38 mph 3 80 85 percentile that's the design speed of that road now we heard a comment about the maximum speed we can talk about the maximum speed I can't control idiots and we don't design roads with idiots. They would still be idiots. That's not the thing to look at. Let's go south of 3200 South on 12 West 85 percentiles 50 m an hour. That's this road. That's the road without traffic calling that people drive at. And by the way, that was a 100 mile per hour idiot on that road. So, does that mean that we should be designing roads for a 100 mph driver on the on the south part of 12 West? And does it make sense to pick out the maximum speed as something that's important for us to design roads to? People drive as fast as they think they feel safe. It's been demonstrated that this traffic calming, maybe it's overengineered, maybe it's whatever, whatever, whatever. But we know that speed makes accidents more serious, especially when there's a pedestrian. This road was designed for 35 mph and it's operating at 35 mph. People are driving it at that speed. Let's talk about close calls. We heard a lot about close calls. Thank you. Let's talk about not close calls. Let's talk about a pedestrian that was hit on 800 West while going to school in a crosswalk without any sort of traffic calming or any sort of bull bouts or anything else. Let's talk about in the last 2 months a cyclist that was hit on 3200 South, apparently our favorite road, and and 640 West, 7-year-old going to school that was hit in a crosswalk by a driver that just didn't see her. Those aren't their misses. Those are pedestrians and cyclists that have been hit in the last two years. And it's our responsibility in my opinion to protect that. Go up two slides, please. One more. I I lied. This is an article uh from April of this year from the Department of Public Safety warning us about how dangerous Utah roads are for our children. And the biggest group of people according to the Department of Highway Safety or public safety is for kids that are under the age of 20 and that are legally and rightfully in the sidewalk just like they're supposed to be. The last sentence of the last paragraph, I just clipped this directly from the article, quoting uh this uh this Lieutenant Cameron Roden, the people that are at risk are under 20 and in sidewalks. And that's why we need to do something. And I can show you the statistics that's earlier here about the increase. Let's go to the first slide. Since the 1990s, there has been about a 10% increase in all traffic deaths in the US. It's a 90 80% increase for pedestrians. Does that does that sound fair to pedestrians? We have a 20 a 10% increase in traffic deaths. We've done things to make cars safer, but we have an 80% increase in vehicle uh pedestrian deaths. Next, I'm going to do it all. Uh let's go to the next one. Here's what Okay, that's in the US. What about Utah? Pedestrian fatalities on the increase. Bicycle fatalities on the increase. Do we have a problem to solve? We didn't build 1,200 West just for vehicles. No,

»people tell us that we think active transportation is a good thing. And I can go through the list. We just wrote an active transportation plan. We can talk about why we think it's a good thing. It's in the plan. People don't feel safe with a painted white line to protect them on their bicycle from vehicles. I'll go out and battle those cars on my bicycle. I choose to do that because I ride 20 miles an hour. I'm not bragging. I have help. Uh but I I'll go battle the cars, but I'm not a kid on my bike trying to get to school. And so we say, well, let's protect the kids. Instead of just painting a line on the road, let's put up a barrier. That's the way to do it. And when I walked into this job and heard what we were doing on 12th level, I said, "Hey, a barrier is great, but we still have this really, really big problem to solve, and that's intersections." When I worked in Germany for 6 years, I was educated in very quickly about how cars and bikes still have a conflict at intersections. And the solution to that is to move the bike lane and the pedestrian crosswalk away from the intersection as these as these intersections are designed. So the square the the car squares up and can see the bicycle or pedestrian instead of the right hook. So I'll admit there's an inconvenience to vehicles. In fact, they're so inconvenient, they're driving the design speed of the road. Because if we didn't have traffic calming, I would expect 50 m an hour on 12 West. That's what is happening south of 12 West. So, I admit it's an inconvenience. It's an inconvenience that keeps bicycle safe, keeps speeds down, and keeps pedestrians safe. That's my opinion. That's also the opinion of engineers will do this for a living. I'll be quiet maybe. U yeah. So, to kind of bring back to what's proposed tonight, uh, and why we're here, um, I wasn't ready to take them out yet, but I do think that we need to engage with the feedback that we've gotten and decide if we're ready to spend money to make modifications, whether that be the ones proposed tonight or other other items. My initial proposal had other items, but after meeting with city staff and and some others, those things weren't as big of a thing that I thought we should do today or even need to do soon. So, minimize this. And um uh so that's why this proposal is this. And I want to address, you know, you showed the video. Levi, while I'm talking, could you go to my folder and of the videos? think

»it's going to be in teams going,

»right? But I think I think I

»um and this is why I'm proposing different islands um because

»mayor. Yeah,

»the image.

»I put the image

»this one.

»That's

»Yeah, just click that. It would be a URL.

»And then the video to get queued up is called North 1200 West from 3200 to Park Avenue. Yeah. And then give that to about 2 minutes and pause it by 206. So this is this is why I propose and I think that if we're not ready to abandon everything, which I'm not yet. I'm not ready to blow anything out yet, but I am ready to adjust the islands because I think they're too big in the initial phases. And I agree with you, mayor. People should stop where they're supposed to stop and it makes those intersections a lot easier. But I want to demonstrate this happened. It was either today or yesterday. I don't remember where I was going north and you'll see me approach this intersection. You saw it right there.

»Right.

»That person is creeped out and I'm making a left-hand turn. So they didn't stop where they were supposed to. Right.

»Continue the video. I make it and I didn't even hit the island, right? And so I think I don't know if it was the foot adjustments relatively wider, but I do think that the the islands are less intimidating. So I wouldn't have mattered if like it wouldn't have bothered me if they had them, but I fit even though they were in cross in my Toyota Toyotas and they were in a bank anored of some type. And there's just been a couple of those that I think that these design ones that we have now, whether they're the right ones or not, are great from what the original phases were. And I'm willing to make that decision now.

»Can I add to that make?

»Um, yeah. So, I've been driving a lot and I'm a fan of the new and moved out islands. Um, I I intend every time I drive well, I drive over the new mouthful islands and I've done it in a minivan. I've done it with sleep children who stay asleep. I've done it with a boat and a trailer. I've done it over and over again and it it barely bumps my car. I mean, it is smaller than a speed bump in my opinion. Um, I know speed bump he pipes are, but um I think they're great. I think if you are ever concerned that you're going to hit another car in the intersection, it is so easy to go over the smaller smaller islands. And maybe if I was in very low riding Honda Civic or something, I might be worried, but I I mean, we could test it out, but it just seems like they're so inconsequential and tight, but they still slow me down. I'm not going to not take them going 10 miles an hour, even 5 miles an hour. have been taken slowly, but they're they're very dryable in opinion.

»So, do you may I ask you a question?

»Yes.

»Do you think they're and I just want to know um do you think they're the lower they they lose their effectiveness?

»No.

»As people are willing to Okay.

»No, because I'm still going to drive over them slowly as if I was a speed bump. I'm going to be going 1 2 m an hour over them. I'm still going to be navigating them slowly and looking at the intersections at at the crosswalks, but but I think that they have the intended purpose, which is to slow down that traffic, turning in and off the street. I'll just address some of So, I have seen that they were riding on the Civic intentionally without stopping or even trying to like just go over that exact one that we just saw turning right to go south. Um, and I started to wonder, are they less effective if people are just going to do that? But they Carl's fine. They they it slowed them down, but

»they made a quick right turn that we're trying to avoid.

»Uh, and I started to kind of contemplate that, you know.

»Yeah. I watched the car tonight drive over headed north the newer lower curves and they didn't even slow down. I'm not I'm not arguing against the lower curves. I'm really not. But

»they just hit them and they they didn't slow down at all. I've driven my you know what my normal what my Dodge Intrepid looks like is a very old very I'm willing to put my car at risk. I've driven my Intrepid over the taller curves. It's not a high clearance car. The front spoiler that runs were up a little bit, but there was no damage to the I'm not saying that anyone else experiences that. I have a low car. Anyway, I'm I'm interested in effectiveness.

»Yeah.

»For straightening cars out before they uh before they cross the the crossroads. Nathan, let me ask you, may I said I'd be quiet, but I'll just ask questions. How how do we get to how do we get to where we're even if we stop at the stop line we don't creep forward to the vehicle lane now if we need to revisit visibility I mean we can all I have to go by engineering standards I have to go by standards that the Federal Highway Administration has adopted for visibility on a certain speed of a road we talk about that at length we made a potential commercial developer move around because of visibility standards and that same engineer says the visibility is according to code according to the standards. So how do we educate or do we not educate? Do we just say no there's no way we can make people drive according to state law? I think we can educate, but I do think that there are visibility issues that I also referenced in that folder, that intersection itself, some landscaping, some of those kind of things. When those initial phases were built, I brought up visibility issues and staff, I think, responded well with making different types of barriers at those intersections. I I'll I'll go on record saying that I think us giving up our landscaping uh ease in right away or whatever it was on the street was a mistake. um because it made some of this less easy to fix. Um but I think it's there's some visibility things that we can still fix which mostly include landscaping but I don't know that I just I think it's helping. Would writing would writing tickets help? It is state code.

»Yeah. I think I think the reason people creep up because we're used to being not having a bike lane that we have to stop in front of. I said that video today just coincidentally that in Salt Lake they have such a wide sidewalk bike lane that people are used to being at the edge of the traffic lane when they turn. So they stop with pedestrians, they stop, look for cars and then they turn. I think it's more of a maybe a culture or maybe a habit of changing things. took it. I think so. Is it worth trying? I think so. I mean, I was like with everybody else. I'm excited to draw this up and down and they were out there painting the crosswalks and the guy was wondering why he was driving down the dead end street and he was painting the crosswalks and cuz it was lines and he was putting di diagonal and I got his input. Um, we had that flashing stop line just down there lit up and stuff and some didn't even stop. It blew right through everybody. Got stop lights. They can't change all those driving culture, but we do the best we can. But the the mountables, I was in the car. I did my tow truck and I did my N truck. But this other ones, I think they are better designed. You the newer the newer one. So I I'm in support of changing lower. I think you got the I mean I mean they're there and it says what it does traffic calling. I mean, if somebody will choose to run the stop sign, someone will choose to drive over those. Yeah. We can't fix everybody. Do you guys remember the meeting, special meeting had with a room full of people after the 8 West got hit and they came to us and they said, "You better do something. We got to make our roads safe. You got to make a west and west safe." And they came up with their own. Why can't you do traffic calling? Why can't you We've We've measured speeds on 8 West and 10th West. Those are 25 mph roads. I mean, they should not be any faster than that. Speeds are 35 35 36 37 85th percentile. So, you know, do do you remember that meeting when people came to us, especially meeting said, "Please, can you do something to slow cars down on 8th and 10th west and driving this?" You drive at 35, maybe 40 if you're if you're got some caffeine, but you drive at 35. The data show that,

»right?

»In that same traffic though, you know, maybe I'm going to be a nickel advocate tonight. You're supposed to take that turn. In that engineering, if I remember correctly, being posited right here, you make that turn, it's supposed to be done at 1 and a half miles hour. It's really slow. So, if you're if the speed you're merging into is 35 and you're going to 1.5, that's a problem.

»So, that doesn't look like 1.5 to me in the video. by design according to the engineer.

»But we didn't they didn't go over the curb so they didn't hit anybody.

»I'm just saying and even the original design was the barrier actually part of the design because I thought it was supposed to be a raised curb.

»No, went to the barrier because we looked at so I adopted this again. I worried about intersections that came in when this this design was already well underway. alternatives uh were we considered alternatives uh a raised curve. We we we ended up where we are. We talked about uh um poles, right? Um I've seen this design in Lehi with candlesticks for barriers, not only on mountable curbs, but also on to separate the vehicles from the the cars from the bikes. And it to me I'm confused because there's just a a forest of candlesticks. Candlesticks are the breakaway.

»Yeah, we have some where the mind has to be dealt with.

»Um so we saw a proposal from a guy who is involved in iron, right? A decorative iron. We could you saw the email, maybe not. It's $880,000 to replace those jersey barriers with something more bankrupt. It's almost a million bucks for a mile 1.2 miles of road.

»Yeah, I care more about the functionality and common sense than I do that works.

»Yeah, the Jersey barriers. It was mentioned tonight in public comment about how Jersey barrier separates interstate traffic going in opposite directions at a lot higher streets than we're talking about here

»is to protect a vehicle from going too far into either oncoming traffic or in this case it's from going into the bike lane to protect the cyclists. I mean based on that and some of the comments we should have went down the median too can't cross into each other. I mean we could get ridiculous about all this. I just want to be common senseoriented. I mean I know with the engineering but I created malible curves like I said on new I haven't been able to test those out. I haven't seen another card complete that I can work with or anything about the 3.4 international fire code. We have to approve this and they haven't.

»So we have had conversations with the hire and fire department the chief about this road. I was in a meeting on the fire district two two weeks ago. No, a month ago and not the seat but a different guy. Not the guy maybe still here, right? Thanks for coming. I do appreciate your comments. He was asking about emergency tickets and on 12 West. So I said if you want to revisit 12 West with me, here's my car. Let's talk about it. So here's another invitation to talk about 12 West. I said, "Let's talk about emergency safety. Let's talk about fire code safety." And that was the end of the conversation, right? So, let's schedule the time. Let's let's get the fire chief or whoever can speak uh on behalf of the higher fire department and let's go through it. Um I don't have knowledge that it's not fires safe. I know that we had conversations on onsite with emergency personnel before our October meeting. We've had conversations with school bus drivers from the school district and the school district. We had conversations with connect. We've had conversations with all these people and we're listening and the the official agency. They had conversations with the uh uh sheriff's department who does law enforcement and they said, "Yeah, we understand what you guys are doing and we think you're doing the right thing. Do we need an official statement? We'll bring it in."

»Well, in public comment, it sounds like they've talked to some of these people that aren't saying it's okay. So,

»now we're getting a different story from who's talking to public on the road and who's talking to local governments on the road. I think it'd be worth visiting with fire. We'll do it.

»Uh yeah, I a few topics. I don't want to de labor this these points, but but I wanted to bring up we can discuss. Um, one one comment I heard multiple times today was just um about the issue of the height of the jersey barrier in addition to small kids or people handbike or people to the ground. So, I'm wondering if we have a conversation about um at each intersection where the jersey barrier comes to the intersection would be worth replacing that one single section of Jersey Barrier on either side of the intersection with something in half height. So that as pedestrian or biker or walkers are coming on that bike lane to the intersection that it's pretty that the cars coming on or off well can see the people in the bike lane. What are you guys thoughts? I I don't know if that's possible to replace that one piece of either side of the intersection at that height so that there is slightly more visibility into the bike lane as you're coming in and out of the intersection. Is that a possibility? just

»maybe.

»Yeah, I could certainly look into that. That is that is an option. The reason it ended up the height it was is just because it was a standard size and they pump these things out like

»and so anything not standard just becomes

»pricey. So it might be cheap if we want to go that route. It might be cheaper just a wall. I just got to look into what's possible. That's why we put the you can see there in that intersection we put those tapered ends because those are those are still expensive but at least they're fabricated very standard piece if you will

»but that's that's certainly something we could

»taper along first two sections.

»Yeah. Yeah. We we definitely look into that.

»It'd be nice to have maybe a half height.

»Yeah. And we taper the third and half height on too.

»Yeah. And we pushed and looked for that midterm in design phase.

»Didn't Tom tell us we had already done some of that height reduction on walls.

»Okay.

»I think he's referring to the tapered ends.

»Exactly. The tapered end. So that's new. The tapered end. Maybe that's not enough.

»Yeah. And I'll say in my initial proposal lower this was one thing I was going to propose, but I that was actually part of the initial design phase. We chose for the least expensive option at this point. Yeah,

»it it was substantially more money.

»Okay.

»Even maybe a transparent one talking about metal ones. I don't know cheaper something maybe. Yeah, I think you Yeah, I can look into that. I think you might lose some of the strength if you do go with some sort of decorative metal material kind of thing. You might lose some of the durability or strength and may or may not keep a car from going through it, but I mean something we could definitely look into. I think probably Yeah, we'll we look at that easy. And one thing we go that route is we put comments a lot of kids using these as ramps.

»Yeah,

»we're going to that something kind of did hear that was really something to think about if we can't

»we can I mean people shouldn't be using those ramps. Um, another point I wanted to bring up, um, I heard a lot of people over the past 12 months say, um, the road curve so sharply at point that I feel like traffic coming the other direction is going to hit me straight on. Um, so since this road's been open, I've been trying to drive it a lot and experience see if I could experience some of what they're talking about. Um, there is that one image that I can pull this up. Um there is one part I think people call it an S-curve which is just right in between the stone bridge intersection and then 2800 south to the north. So in the right in the middle of that block there's a fairly sharp curve. Yeah. So I just did a screenshot and just circled right where that curve what I felt was the sharpest point in the curve. Um so on the left side it's I mean there's a really wide The worst station landscape park

»park strip. Thank you. The park strip is like extra wide there, right? And then there's space in the lanes of traffic or push further towards the jerky barrier there. Um, so I mean that's that's an issue of paint the way you painted the lines to have that curve the arb. So, I'm wondering if if that could be something that we could look into, either painting it slightly in a straighter lane or even moving the park strip, modifying the park strip there so it doesn't have so much of a reverb and just straightening the lanes out in that point at that point there. Is that something we could look into, talk about? I mean, I understand that's then been going against the the purpose of the curvature, which is to have more curvature, so slow the cars down, but I think in my understanding that seems like a point where a lot of people are experiencing a lot of angst or close calls as we've heard. So, I'm wondering if if we could straighten that out there, if that would help alleviate some of that stress of driving around her in between a car and a barrier. I'm going to just pose the question. I appreciate discussion. I think that's why we're here, right? We needed something on the agenda because we asked for it and this is the resolution is the proposal that is here. It doesn't include anything that we've talked about as far as barriers and chicane changes.

»Yeah.

»Um I mean, is that an amendment you're ready to make? Now, I'm just kind of curious about like I guess I want to kind of take these one at a time like Mville Islands. Do we want the new ones or do we want to wait and not spend the money? I just I feel awful keeping them there knowing that we don't like them if we all are changing. But there's valid concern that came up during public com of if they're going to come out a year later than why spend the money now. I'm almost okay with that. I haven't that's why I propose what I propose today. But that's a question. There's other the other two, you know, we haven't talked about specifically with resolution, but painting them, I don't think's an issue, but there's also the traffic study that will probably give us a lot more data whenever that is done to make other decisions. We're going to know traffic as far as like pedestrian. We're going to know the amount of cars that are going through there at a daily average. We're going to have some speed data maybe. I don't know. I don't remember what's all in the analysis. We're going to know how many crashes and things like that have happened. That's what's required for those warrants. So, I think those are the easy things that I just like to ask like if we were to pass um all three tonight or if you're you know you're ready to pass traffic calming uh or not the visual the analysis for stops or the painting that kind of like are those monies that we're willing to spend and tell the stats they can right now.

»Yeah. I guess I'm bringing us back to the res.

»So the the resolution as it's proposed on item three is Nibi Park Avenue and 2980 South. Yes. Two different places to do traffic studies specifically as I remember to evaluate four-way stops multimodal. So, sorry. 2980 South

»Nibbley Park Avenue and South.

»Oh, that's

»the ones that I think we it has two schools, right? Those are those are the two places where kids are going walking to school. That's one reason. But I also think that they are the ones that are most complete right now and they're the only four intersections at the moment. So that's why I wanted those too.

»That's helpful.

»Everything else would be a three.

»The data is great. Um there's no doubt we can count cars now. We don't need we have a device to do that to make and cars. Um, the four-way gets more complicated because it has to do with pedestrian gaps and that's why you have to have people out there doing the study tallying marks and and with the stopwatch instead of just the device. So I think I think the the licensed independent engineering consultant to do the traffic studies the warrant studies was specifically to warrant whether there stops we'll get more data than that but

»yeah so that that's

»we should ask a question when we do a study why are we doing the study I would say multimodal stops right because there's different types of stops that can happen at intersection from what I understand But most

»the question we're asking is whether those two intersections either should be a four-way stop rather than two-way stop

»right and and that's based on all the citizen info that we had gotten that has a lot of people suggest that's what they would rather have and if it warrants it it's something we should look at.

»Yeah, the warrants we should do it. I mean there's there's a manual for this. So our opinion it's based on

»do you think in addition to mountable islands or without islands or or that's a decision we made about

»I mean the resolution you keeps mountable islands but makes them all the same size and does that study. So I would say they're going to say

»what's with proposed tonight.

»Yeah.

»Close to

»we can discuss it. That's what's proposed. take more question. Yeah, we can have okay discussions after the motion. We can have discussions before the motion why don't go ahead. Oh, I just had uh one question that mentioned that when they measured the concrete barriers were only 7 in 7 in that wasn't standard and I don't know what the standard is.

»Yeah, we can definitely check into that for sure.

»I guess

»yeah. Do we know that location? Do we know? There's a photo, but you guys might need to tell us where I am.

»Can I talk to the council?

»Well, let's do this. Levi, can you bring up um in my folder again, image 2642? We have to go to that link again. Sorry.

»Sorry. I'm trying.

»And also have the one you had open for Aaron readily available. And if you think you can play, we'll just shut the whole thing.

»Okay.

»It's fine. All right. We'll go check the whole thing.

»Great. I did have a discussion with Tom and Justin a little bit about that today. I think it's a good thing for us to get out resolution to do it.

»Yeah. Well, I guess I have a question by what is what would be your timing on some of this stuff? I mean, we're going into winter. Has anything actually changed?

»Yeah, that's a great question. And unfortunately, I think timing is garbage. I mean, it it's an awful time to construct stuff. It's not a great time to do pedestrian and and bike and that kind of traffic because of winter. You're going to have school break, right? So I think that this that's why in the resolution I I I give staff the opportunity to say this is the best time most beneficial that will give the most game added money we're spending if we're going to do these changes both with the study as well as the nonline changes and I think correct me if I'm wrong staff would probably give us a heads up they're ready to pull the trigger they say we're going to do it this is just offers that these are the changes we as a city know we want now or in the next year or couple months.

»Yeah, I the timing was just tough and so I left it bank so they could pull it out as I talked to them like to do a study now would be you probably wouldn't get a warrant that wasn't accurate and the construction wouldn't be great quality. Um, okay. About the warrant analysis, um, as I understood it, we had to move the stop sign on New Park Avenue from north, south to east, west, partly because we got this money from the county to finish these phases.

»So, um, I mean,

»sorry, can I please?

»It's just a more It's just a more major track, right? It didn't have anything to do. The county did not.

»Okay.

»Oh, it wasn't a requirement. Okay. So if we did somehow see data from the study that said yeah it warrants a four-way stop then wouldn't be a conflict with cash.

»Correct.

»The the road has for 30 years been on the cash metrop column planning uh traffic plan. So they expect without any enforcement that when you have roads that are collecting cars and evicting hyum to the airport and so on that you you don't put a lot of stop signs on it.

»Correct.

»And that's why we're so careful about putting stop signs in that are warranted. But there's no the we presented this design to the uh council of governments. They recommended it being funded with local option sales tax and the cash county council adopted that recommendation. This is over a period of about six years.

»But there's no we presented the design. There's no there's no stipulation that says, "Oh, well, you can't put a stop sign on a CMPO traffic planned road."

»Okay.

»We we if it warrants a stop sign, we should put a stop sign there. and maybe the timing on your strip in the past when we do new asphalt do coating over it and so that might be a timing too to change some of those lines that you're talking about because the old black

»and I think if you look at that measurement we may find that what she described may be necessary as if the barriers aren't far enough away or whatever. I think we're going to find out if that's a good idea with that. Also, I know we've had a lot of mission on the road, but I've had a dozen or more people that just love it. I know you probably don't hear that. I have a lot of people walking that. There's always people walking on there. There's people biking. There's people from Strat Strat I stopped today walking their dogs through there. So there's a lot of lot of people that that do enjoy it and it's nice that you can drive through it without having connectivity. So anyways, I know we just all said good and bad a lot a lot a lot of good things in

»Yeah. My biggest issue is getting on and off. So

»east west

»east west that's the biggest issue I see country along center north and south a couple dozen times in certain one genre I haven't seen any school so I don't expect anyone to be out and uh that that's my biggest issue is just that east west because it's just it's I know it's designed to be hard but it needs to be practical too. So that you can merge in traffic and you get lost. We want to be like Logan Main Street. I mean, they don't have any traffic coming cuz they don't need it. You have enough traffic, it combs itself cuz you can't go anywhere cuz you can't speed on Logan Main Street because there's too damn much traffic.

»Well, I hate to bring up anecdotes. There was a lady that was killed on Logan Main Street when she was drugged underneath a cement truck as the cement truck turned right onto Main Street. No, I was able to watch that from my window. I'm sorry.

»But but Logan Main Street isn't the answer to no traffic,

»but traffic caling congestion isn't a great

»Yeah, I agree with you. I think I think the only issue I still have mostly is getting on from east and west which is why I'm proposing the other size curve and white. Do you think that helps or is there more issues like you talked about with visibility and stuff? I know you guess but

»yeah because I haven't really seen the new ones in phase five. It sounds I mean they're lower but they still look the same size and about the same gap. I I don't see any extra room to make that without crossing that double.

»I I would recommend the whole council to continue to watch the videos. I'm uploading like two per day and you might see some of those instances and it's just the one experiences that I had. But there's a few in there that

»No, I appreciate I watched all the truck turned right and he was 2 and 1/2 ft over

»the wide wheel track the oversized one or the other one.

»Oh, just been it's been opening to issues that I think we can fix and issues that um and I'm sure that there'll be more, right? I haven't yet had an experience like has been talked about with close calls myself. I have passed like a dump truck going south. I have passed like a semi. I've seen buses, but that that doesn't mean doesn't happen. It just hasn't happened to me yet. Never. I also want to just mention one thing to G. I sat over there at Mini Park Avenue 12 West the other day at uh school let out time and just watch the traffic. And that was actually really enlightening too. You have time to just stand on the corner and just watch a lot of people coming to 12 West and then turning right. And probably 50% of the people that I watched turn right onto 12 West going south uh veer into the other into the turn lane, but the other half made the turn just fine. There was also a handful that went over the curb just fine. Their cars seem to fine to me. Um so it's possible. I mean half the car did it. Half the cars veer a little bit into the turn lane. So

»obviously the improvement is still when I want to fix this couple of H34. May I motion? Thank you. We'll make a motion to approve the resolution for first reading. motion and a second per reading discussion. I think I'm okay with modifying or at least lowering because they've been engineered. None of us are engineers. We spent a lot of money for the design. So, we're just copying what's already been stands about channel.

»Okay. So what what would we like to see happen between first and second reading?

»I think Nick mentioned haven't been suggested.

»I'm going to look at lowering the raw intersections with different options whether it's some sort of decorative metalish thing or just lower curb. We're going to look at changing the radius of the chicanees to make them a little less abrupt and We're going to go measure the distance from the white paint line to the front of the wall and just make sure it's where it's supposed to be. I mean, there's a good chance that when you're putting those things in, they bump they move. I don't know. So, we'll just we'll go check them all and make sure they're back to where they need to be. We'll also make sure that's part of the regular maintenance.

»Yeah. I mean, does council need to tell staff to

»Yeah, I mean, I can pop that up. I don't need that resolution. I was going to say check with fire and make sure

»okay so I know this is a hard issue. I appreciate everyone being a part of this. I am going to stress there's no there's no fuss here. I appreciate everyone being part of this. Um, we've been talking about this for well over a year and I think that's evidence that we are listening. The council is listening to what you have to say. We listen to what each other have to say. The guarantee of listening to one another is not a guarantee of coming to the same conclusion. That's just the way the process works. And we all have our passions and we all have the things that we're looking out for. I can tell you I've already said what I'm looking out for. I'm passionate about that and I know that you're passionate and I know other people have strong things about it too. But we have to agree and I believe the process has worked that we listen to one another. That doesn't guarantee that we come to the same conclusion. So, thanks for listening.

»I appreciate it. I think tonight is showing we're not only listening, but we're starting to act even if we're not fully, you know, and so the only thing that's holding me back from waiting second at this point is the emergency clarification. Everything else had nothing to do with the resolution tonight. And so, I mean, I'm just going to throw it out there to see if it's the same, but I'll I'll make the motion to substitute it. Wait a second. You're making a substitute motion to wave second reading. Is there a second

»in order to speed up?

»The only thing that I see that holds it back.

»We need a second.

»Yeah. Before I I'm throwing it out to see it.

»We can second it and vote it down.

»If it dies, that's fine.

»We have to have a second before. So there's a motion to a substitute motion to wave secondly. Is there a second about that? Okay, it dies. Great. That's all I can see. All right. Are we ready to vote? So the motion is to approve or first reading. We've given staff directional things to look at. Um I don't think we need to go over that again. We'll do it. Is there opposition to voting for saying none? Those in favor of a passing for first reading, please say I.

»Very timid food tonight. All right. Raise your hand, please. Those in favor of a little worn out of uh passing for first reading, please raise your hand. 1 2 3 4. Those opposed to pass for first reading. I see one. So, we'll we'll bring it back. Thank you for that discussion. Appreciate it. Everyone may ask a question. Um we have one comment that was legal included in the meeting. Did that be read out loud or included in the meeting?

»Was that Britney? I don't think I got that one.

»Was it supposed to be read out loud in public comment?

»Yeah. So, it's in the public record in the public record all the council city manager be included in

»Okay, great.

»Are we on sign code? got about three things that came from the planning commission that are up the first rating. And let me leave it to you guys. Um because it came from the planning commission, I thought I owed the planning commission put them on this agenda instead of delaying them. That doesn't mean you all can decide to stay on the agenda and continue any or all of these three. Or you can hear it on first reading or you can pass it or wait second way second reading. Just FYI.

»You're so nice. We're celebrating on K9 last.

»All right. I don't see anything different. Let's talk about first reading on government's 254.

»We thought you gonna do this for us.

»Yeah. And for what it's worth, this is the only one of those that came from an applicant. Um the rest of them were uh you know staff recommendations um driven by you know different processes. So uh I I'll just explain what this one is. Uh Maverick, they're requesting some amendments to our sign regulations really with the purpose to allow electronic message display. Uh so they can display fuel price on their existing sign um at Maverick there on the highway 30 390 South. Um the reason this is necessary is electronic message display or EMD signs are currently limited to commercial industrial properties along Highway 8991. They're not allowed anywhere else. Um the applicant did provide quite a bit of detail and it's in the packet. I'll I'll summarize it on on the purpose of this. The public benefit, improving communication, supporting local commerce, ensuring consistent and updating science standards as well as general plan consistency. They talk about promoting economic vitality, enhancing community identity, and encouraging compatible commercial development. um promoting local business development and modern commercial communication methods. Uh specifically, you know, they they talked about the the existing technology is getting outdated for for those that signage and just becomes more difficult to maintain. Um ensures clarity and consistency with city's sign regulations. encourages uh uniform design standards and technological flexibility and preserves community car community character through regulated brightness and display standards already established in the code. Um so just a little bit on staff's take on this highway 165 in this in this area it is envisioned to be a commercial corridor. It's part of the city's vision for town center. uh the existing code it doesn't just leave it wide open. There are it is very detailed on regulations to focus to mitigate potential impacts of electronic message displays. There's there's a lot of regulation on dwell time brightness. Um no off- premise advertising is allowed. Uh talks about frame effects. I feel like it it's it when it was crafted it was is very well thought out and looking into know mitigating those things. Something else to consider is that the neighborhood commercial zone um further limits its application within the neighborhood commercial zone. It's it only allows small monument signs. So those are like five feet tall, no more than 20 square feet, right? It might actually be four feet tall and 5t wide, but regardless, it's it's limited there. Um the applicant has provi provided a legitimate justification for alignment with the general plan principles. we are trying to balance um economic development and opportunities for economic development and from their standpoint it's hampering that ability to to display the the sign the price of the the fuel there. Um staff recommends limiting the signage to areas along SR 165. So this this wasn't specifically their request. They they requested it be allowed in the neighborhood commercial zone, but staff staff recommends further limiting it. This would still allow them to to fulfill the purpose of of their application, but limit to SR 165. So it' be 8991 or 165. So if there's neighborhood commercial, for example, on 3200 South, they they wouldn't be allowed. Um so planning commissions and staff recommendation is approval of this ordinance which which would allow electronic message display signs in the road commercial zone and specific to highway 165.

»Motion to approve ordinance 2534 and wave second reading.

»Motion to approve and wave second reading from Nathan and Norm and second from Garrett. discussion.

»Question.

»I drove past this gas station last night and the car wash that's right next to Maverick has a sign says cash car wash. Um but it's mostly white around the edges. It's extremely bright. Um would this new electronic sign be like same size smaller? I can't imagine this to be brighter than that. So,

»that's that's a good question and I don't know how that was originally approved that cash car wash sign, but it's going to it's going to be limited on brightness. I don't know exactly related to that sign what it would be, but it would be a conditional use. So, that would be um that would be considered at the planning commission level that all all of those things would be reviewed to make sure it meets those standards. If if it were approved,

»it may be compliance for a lighted time.

»It may be that regulated illumination levels are regulated and vitresent regulated regardless of whether it's animated or not.

»It may be and I know when cash car wash went in I at least what they told us was they kept the same sign that was there. They just uh they just changed the the the b the lettering that was on it. Um they didn't change the structure or anything else on it. So we didn't we didn't require them to get an additional permit because of that. Um but we can look into that if it's

»sweet. I maybe they maybe they maybe they're out of compliance now and maybe maybe we ought to follow up with them. Yeah, they have different bulbs. They probably work,

»but um I know Gina's they put up a TV on outside which should be a digital signs. Will this make this nurse compliant?

»I don't know if I would count that as a

»It's not a sign electronic message display. I mean, it's it's a it's the menu basically. The That's a good question. We'd have we'd have to look at that to see if that's

»I mean specifically

»that that's a good question. I don't I don't know if that one would be considered electronic message display or or if it's more of just the menu.

»But I apprec I appreciate Oh, sorry. Go ahead. No, I'm thinking ordinance.

»Yeah. So, the dark sky ordinance still applies. And I feel like,

»right? Yeah. And I I I do feel like that there's ways to mitigate the um the light pollution from those sign signs that that are baked into the current code. That's a good question. I think that's something we could look at with the conditional use permit to see. I mean, I think I think the the idea is they're not casting light on a long ways on your on properties beyond beyond their borders. I appreciate your comments on the existing ordinance. I have that was written by an engineer, by the way. An engineer that was doing optics at the time. So, we might be throwing engineers under the bus, but

»it was an engineer that broke that exact ordinance and got very technical about foot candles and quill time. And I turned the lights off in this room with a light meter and showed the council what 100 foot candles looks like.

»And so, it leads me to a question. Do we have the necessary instrumentation to enforce the ordinance we have? Do we have a foot camp?

»Well, yeah,

»well, I think I could probably

»I will I will say it's that's beyond my specific expertise, but with our night sky ordinance, um, our our building inspector ensures that those are compliant.

»Oh, nice. Um, so I put it on him to do that with new buildings. I don't know if he has a meter. I don't know his methodology, but I know that that's something that he ensures that they're meeting our night sky ordinance.

»Sounds like a noise ordinance.

»Yeah, it's the same. You're measuring light instead of acoustics, right? But there's a meter that measures things.

»We can look I I can I can talk to Austin and see what he's what he does. a little bit more deeply there. He he looks I think he's looking at the specifications of the

»Yeah. Yeah. Because they're

»upward.

»But we do have if I remember right at Maverick we impose the light press pass that is measuring book candles.

»Okay. So

»I I'm happy to It's not a hard meter to run.

»Okay. This baby.

»We could do that for code enforcement, too. We can get him something else to do. Go out there and measure at night if you want

»if you want to do that.

»From an engineering point of view, not an HP point of view.

»Well, if we want if we want people to comply with our ordinances, that's how we do it. at the time. Um, and maybe there's a different mood and I think council ought to think about this, but electronic mexitine displays, there were some in the valley that were absolutely obnoxious.

»And right now, I can't think of any absolutely obnoxious. And I don't think that signs and sign companies have changed. I think all of us has changed. And so it may be that the electronic messaging display and illuminate and sign illumination has maybe we're too picky about stuff because we're all in these houses of crap flying in our base now. Uh are we motion we have a motion for to wave

»wave a second?

»I have had to deal with you do regulations on many times in my life. I assume ours are currently more restricted than those. This proposal was not You don't have an answer.

»I don't I don't know. I I would assume

»they have a Maverick sign on 8991.

»Yeah.

»You hasn't come down on them.

»They So my understanding Yeah. They all all of my communications with Matt with the with UD do is on off- premise signs and I know those are very heavy regulated.

»Um

»yeah,

»I know it's different with on premise signs.

»I think it's interesting to note that we've been happy with the ordinance as it applies to commercial and industrial. This is just to make it okay and neighborhood of commercial.

»Yeah.

»Okay.

»All right. Any any further discussion on the motion to adopt and wave second reading? Seeing none, will call the role, please.

»Council member Larson, what is your

»in favor?

»Council member C in favor. member man

»in favor.

»Member man in favor

»in passes five in favor none opposing. Thank you. Open space subdivision amendments. Let's tackle that.

»Yep. I'll give an introduction to that one. Uh yeah. So, it was it was suggested to look at potentially updating the open space subdivision code. There was a lot of focus on particularly with the R2A subdivision in light of a a recent application that that came through a recent reszone application and and seeing how that uh was, you know, not not well received. it that that ended up being denied. But um the the planning commission discussed this at length probably three or four workshops and then and then um consider considered this. There was a public hearing on it. But in general, some just just to explain the objectives of of this this code change would be to provide more variety of lot sizes uh allow creativity in in design in in conjunction with that and then mitigating effects of locating close to established neighborhoods. Those are those are really the primary purposes of this. Um, so I'm just going to go over summarize the the proposed changes. So based based on this feedback, the following changes were drafted. So increase the setbacks for side and rear yards that abut property with greater setback requirements. Um, side yards would increase to 10 ft and then rear yards would increase to 25 ft. Um, require variation in lot sizes for all subdivisions that have 40 or greater lots. So no more than 40% of lots could fall within a range of 1500 feet. That was that was one of the things that we'd heard through that process is that at least with that subdivision and really if you look at uh a lot of the open space subdivisions, lot sizes are don't necessarily vary a whole lot. Um there is a a minimum and an average but so there it does there's some variation there but but there not a lot and so this this would change this would require more variation in the lot sizes but with that this relates this next one remove the minimum lot size and frontage requirements. So this is necessary to allow for flexibility and design to facilitate variation in lot sizes. um same number of lots would be allowed. So no additional density but with flexibility in design of lot configuration. So that's the tradeoff there. If we're going to be prescriptive on varying the lot sizes, it becomes more difficult to to put in a box of this is what size lot we want here. Um so it opens that up. Um and then also adopting a minimum buildable area standard of 1500 square ft for all lots to ensure lots are buildable considering setback requirements. Um this has been an issue in uh in a few instances where for example if your sideyard setback increases to 35 ft if it's on an arterial road. If it's a small lot, uh that can really shrink your buildable area. So, just just making that's something else to check on just so that those lots are more buildable. Uh we did and and the the planning commission suggested this. We did solicit some feedback from developers, designers. We got two sets of comments submitted. One was one was uh from a a designer engineer and then the other was kind of a joint uh set of comments that came from developer and as as well as designer. So just to summarize those they they did s suggest that there's some potentially unintended outcomes um with this 30 lot threshold for variation. It may discourage developments in the 40 to 50 lot range. Uh be because it it would uh it would make it more difficult for it would it would pencil out less. For example, in some instances they would have to they would have to build more infrastructure for maybe a 45 lot subdivision than they would for a 38 lot. So maybe they would just build 38 lots. um it may result in even smaller and higher concentration of lots by allowing the smaller lot sizes. So, you know, some I think some people had an issue with 5,000 square foot lots. May you you could you would likely get even smaller lot sizes. It's just that not all of them would be smaller necessarily. um potential improvements that that were suggested is to grant incremental B bonuses for designs that achieve multiple community objectives. And by the way, these were things that were vetted by the planning commission, but ultimately they didn't recommend them, but I wanted to present them just to say that we received these comments. Um consider annual compliance certifications for HOAs or easement holders verifying ongoing maintenance. um tie the fee and move open space rate to city's per acre park improvement cost. Um outright require open space to connect to adjacent greenways trail corridors. It it I think it could be argued that it's not necessarily completely required. I think it's pretty strong language, but um define minimum open space that must be useful, accessible, and improved and clarify that only buildable accessible e easements may be included in net developable land. And then develop open space subdivision checklist. Those are some things which I I feel like they spent a long time or a lot of thoughtful recommendations from that from that standpoint. We didn't receive any um comments from the public. We did have the public hearing, but wanted to share, you know, those those that feedback. Planning Commission's recommendation as well as staff's approval of of this ordinance.

»Questions, motions?

»Okay. motion from Nathan and a second from Norm or

»uh yeah uh this may be something you can or uh I had had conversations with some planning commissioners about less prescribed variety and um part of that it was very vague. It was like law sizes should consider neighbor close nearby neighborhoods or whatever like their established sizes.

»I think that was the main issue with the one that was proposed first. Curious why so prescribed. Um, but I might answer it with this next question, which is from what I understand, this is now less of a legislative decision and so planning and zoning probably wants more things so they can make decisions and there's less of a negotiation factor with that. Is that accurate?

»Uh, I think I think that's pretty accurate. I think we want that they they want and I think staff would agree that for a for an administrative decision we want it to be clear and um objective. So, and if and and we do there's already language in there that requires some discretion for sure and we and they have to make that call like does are open space design standards. There's something sometimes where it's like does that can we really check that box or it's a little bit gray? Uh but but yeah, that that helps if if we can, you know, put numbers to it and say yes, this meets it. No, this doesn't meet it.

»So the only control decision council made for most of these just

»Yeah. And that and that's really no different than how it's been for several years. unless council is accepting it from open.

»That's no different than it's been for several years. What has changed in the last I think two years now, which we haven't really had any open space subdivisions in that time frame is that the council can't get involved in subdivisions. They can they can get involved in legislative decisions, but it used to be that all preliminary plot final plot would come to city council. So they saw all of the open space subdivisions even though at least in the time that I've been here those were administrative decisions. It would it was the council making that judgment call, not not planning commission.

»Last question. Why the Philippine?

»I think that was just a felt like a reasonable number for for kind of a larger developments. Once you get smaller, not pushing um not pushing them to something that would be very difficult to design. Once you get greater than 40 lots, there's there's more flexibility. you probably have multiple few different streets where you can have different depths of lots and I think that was the logic there.

»Thank you.

»Um can I follow up on the comments and this is a discussion Levi and I had we listened to one another. We came in my opinion to a different conclusion which is fine. Who won? I I'll tell you.

»I believe that the reason we wanted to do open space subdivisions way back way back when we've we've lost our way on that. And it's exactly what you're talking about, Nathan. It's the difference between an administrative decision versus a legislative decision. The number one priority I feel and it was it was listed in the in the why we do open space subdivisions. It was conservation subdivisions in the day was to identify and conserve what the community finds of value. And if I ask each one of you on a specific proposal what is of value, we'll get different answers. And so to me, identifying what's valuable to the community and therefore what we should conserve and therefore what we should give a a bonus density to um was completely a legislative decision because we all feel differently about what's of value to the community. And guess what? depending on which side of the street you live on uh with that proposal, that specific proposal, one side of the street may feel completely differently about what's of value to the community than another side of the street. So, one of the biggest uh detractors from the open space subdivision is it was the legislative process as Levi mentioned for for whatever reason, but it was a negotiated process where the council representing the citizens would negotiate through what was of value. And guess what? if you didn't get there, there was no open space. And I think one of the best things about that negotiating process was how it would mitigate the impact to neighborhoods that already existed next to that folks. And that's where we came to a hard stop. The last one of these that we tried. Now, if there's a huge issue and maybe it's not even legal that the the legislative body that's been elected gets to negotiate for what's of value to the community and decide what should be conserved um because there needs to be a checklist, a checklist. Developers have the expectation that they can go into a process and they can come out the other end. And if they follow the rules, if they check off the boxes of what is allowed to be called open space, then they should they have an expectation that they can come out the other end with an approved administratively approved subdivision. But I don't know how, and I said it at the time, get to say it again. I don't know how we make a checklist of what's valuable to the community. And every one of these proposals is contextsensitive. It's about, you know, what are we trying to buffer? What are we trying to protect? What are we trying to conserve? And so, you know, I feel like where we are with the old space submission and you guys have brought it out and I understand why we're here, but there's no guarantee that we will give the community what they want It was a great thing when when we and there were some knockdown dragout fights with the developers. I I can I can tell you the stories and you know it's like I'm sorry. I don't think that's a value. I don't I'm not going to I'm not going to support that proposal and that let me negotiate on behalf of live next to that to that subdivision. Now, that doesn't mean everyone agreed with me by But you want to rebut me?

»Uh, I I'll just say that that that was discussed at at length with the planning commission whether it should be a legislative overlay. Um, there were different opinions on on that. I think what what the con I think the conclusion that the planning commission came to is that they didn't want it to be a barrier to developing open space subdivisions. Um they've we have several successful examples um in town some of them which have you know gone through the administrative process. Yes, it was with city council, but but um and and the standards that we've developed are are solid enough that they felt um the the planning commission felt that keeping an administrative process was was the way to go. They did. I I'll just say that it was considered and and debated. They didn't I I and I would agree with that assessment that if we make it legislative, I every part of our code there's there's a there's a lot of different options of ways to go. So, we have I think we have to think, okay, if we're if we're going to put if we're going to put some kind of a barrier to entry here, where are they going to go instead? And that's what I'm always thinking about with with these and at least with the planning commission, they like the open space subdivision. They like the idea of preservation of open space and they didn't want to add an an additional barrier to to it.

»Yeah. Well,

»y was he?

»No.

»No, it wasn't. No, it's four to one.

»Yeah,

»yeah, I mean this is a public. Yeah, Nick voted no. I mean, every member of the planning commission is encouraged to come to the council and would you like me to express my thoughts? Tell us what you're you're a member of the planning.

»So certainly I'm not here to represent the entire planning obviously. Um so my thoughts are pretty simple actually. Larry, you kind took the words most of the words out of my mouth in terms of how the meeting went for us. Um, my main concern as I've read the code and kind of read the spirit of what the language of the code represents for our open space neighborhood is to preserve sensitive lands. And there's all kinds of fun buzzwords that we use to define what things are. And I don't necessarily know through the administrative process if we necessarily would achieve what our code represents in in terms of how we describe what these areas are within the the open space neighborhood. And then frankly for me uh my fear is that because it is would be an administrative process if things were to remain as they are today that um I don't necessarily control in the right context but I think it's easy to consider that word in this context. I guess it is simply like we do lose some of the idea of like through this open space neighborhood especially in RTA it is a fairly new density I guess as as far as the considerations for some of these lot sizes and for me just from a simple planning perspective um I would appreciate that to stay at the legislative level so that we can ensure that those type types of lot sizes and that type of development can be a complimentary aspect how we plan our city and not just one that could realistically uh could be haphazardly done wherever someone wants it wants it to be done. So I feel like the most appropriate thing at the city level for us as we consider these things would be to say we should have development that would complement nibly and what the land uses are in nibbly relative and not so much something that's just dictated to us by a developer or perspective develop. So that's Nick Kenska, planning commission chairman's opinion and perspective in why.

»So just to be clear, R2A is not new, but open space subdivisions R2A is brand new.

»So again, that that's just me. I'm not here to represent the entire commission. Obviously, you ask my opinion. So

»thank you.

»Thank you. I appreciate it.

»Yeah. One maybe I'll just add we we one thing we kind of the planning commission discussed is because one approach we could take is say okay it's a it's an overlay instead of instead of just a blanket across all these zones where there's you've got to have an open space overlay that is a legislative approval. It's a it's a zone. It's, you know, a zone in of itself. And I think the thing that we struggle with that the planning commission struggle with is okay, or is it going to be um as as mayor explained, uh kind of a negotiation every every time one of these come in? Are we are we is it going to be a negotiation of whether to reszone it or not to reszone it, or is the city going to be proactive? Is it does it depend on the location? And we do our own analysis and we say, "Okay, these locations are are eligible for an open space subdivision and these areas are not." And that that would be I mean, we did something similar with the transfer development rights ordinance. We picked which which areas we we wanted and which areas we wanted to allow additional density and which areas we wanted to preserve. So it' be kind of a similar that that's that's another option that was discussed, but it would be it might be difficult to go through that

»because there's so many nuances with

»every piece of property.

»It's for we still had

»I think the overlay is too coarse. I mean, you could say, well, this area there's potential for open space that we want to conserve, something that's valuable to the community, but is it that group of trees or is it that little wetland or is it that push, you know, push back from the road or is it buffering from neighbors that are live there? You say, "Well, yeah, that seems like a good place to conserve open space, but until what I'm asking for, I know how hard it is to achieve." Until you achieve, until you get to the actual negotiation of what are the spaces and why, it's not what, it's why first. Why are we trying to conserve this piece of property within the project, not just as an overlay on that part of town? I know how hard that is to administer.

»I and maybe this is semantics, but I think it to for it to be a legislative decision, it has to be an I mean the RPUD is an overlay. For example, we're getting into the kind of the realm of RP, but it could be a project by projectbased overlay, not not one that the city comes in and blankets.

»Okay. Just a couple other questions. So, do we have a way to draw a scenario or anything? Because somebody I really appreciated talked about we have to plan for the worst case scenario.

»have to wor scenario. So do we have an example like got rejected would have just been approved. I mean obviously it would require variations but something like that would just been approved in planning commission and stuff

»if they had the zoning.

»Yeah. Can I because I had cast a vote for the first time in a long time. If the zoning had been approved, the developer could have said fine, I'm not giving the city the property. I'm keeping it and he has approval. which is why I voted specifically voted against the reszone because that gave the developer the right to say great I'm the city there's this controversy going on about the lot size and stuff this developer could have completely sidestep that controversy by saying I'm just not going to give the city the property now this now the council's not involved anymore the council gave the reszone Um, and and I suggested what I thought was the remedy. That's fine. At time it didn't fly. I I I lost. That's okay. But that was the problem. The council wouldn't have unless council was accepting property on that proposal. The only thing the council had was a reason. And that's why I said no because it blocks all my leverage with the develop. And the other is share of the open space. We have these huge parks, you know, nearly city center park meadows park. We're building big city parks. We really want a bunch of little spaces. I mean, that's been one of my complaints. Beta parks from the beginning because they're not they really usable space. Do we get our biggest bang for our buck? And do we just create more of those to an open space subdivision if we go this route? I guess is my concern is he's saying okay we're just going to preserve this open space that's not really of any value or it's not usable you could say like some you know and so that's because we have some I mean Rex project I mean the open space I mean the canal with a little trail that counts but I mean that's not really usable I think the people I've knocked on doors there I think the people that they said open space find it of value. There's a trail that they can walk on and and the people that live on Hall Road that pushed houses back off of Hall Road um in the Cottonwood subdivision. Open space between the road and the houses, a buffer between the road and the houses, a buffer between existing properties and the new I mean those are little tiny open spaces. I agree. But I think those buffers are worthwhile people. I mean some of them are I mean not this I think is one of the best open spaces. It's not perfect.

»It is a nature

»and so it's also nature.

»Yes.

»Conservation space is privately owned.

»It's private. link that we just pointed out as great examples. Open based subdivisions are HOA or privately owned parks. They're not city managed.

»Well, Mount Vista has a does have a city park as well

»where the playground is and the the field. I think it's a very good point here that council needs to be really careful about the burden we're putting on the taxpayers by maintaining much space isn't of value to all this effort this huge parks huge park here I mean they don't have built yet we're still in that process so I just feel like how many we're creating these usable city gathering spaces do we really want a bunch of little ones I'm starting I almost wonder open space.

»Yeah, but those those are open space subdivisions that are putting the open space next to one another that allow us to build something fields and stuff like that. I mean, if we can if we can negotiate and get something out of it. I mean, those are all those are open space subdivisions. We're getting open space that we can reach a a scale of. Meadow is an RPD, isn't it?

»Neighborly Meadows. Yeah.

»Yeah.

»Okay. But the open space question is the same, right?

»Nathan, I'm sorry.

»I just want to give him a list. Um, was there any discussion that planning commission was going over bit similar to this that basically said like I feel like we are trying to force some things we'd like to see in nibbly into ordinances and subdivision code that we have rather than just putting it into zones. And that's I think we're at a point now where we really need to look at zoning and change for the things we know we want and just make it administrative and be done and then allow these other things to happen. But we're not changing our zoning. We're trying to do it with subdivisions and other things. If we are okay with 5,000 foot Boston we make a zone and say what we're okay with it being and where we're okay with it being at. stop trying to do this weird well let's just take this code and mix it into here. I think that you're right. It started out with conservation and then it slowly started I think grew into like well what about art space that we can use rather than just a tree you can say it right and that's why we're here but we're at well if we are okay with certain size of lots and we know where we like them and we're open to having them put it in the zone stop trying to do weird stuff with subdivision I think the subdivisions and things like that are when it's like a smaller law or it's it's it's a it's in a zone, but they don't own as much property as they can to make what the zone current says is good. So, you start doing some of this creative stuff and say, "Well, you'll do two acres, but go ahead and put in a multif family split level something that's just four units, but they can't do because of the zoning." Anyway, that's my

»Yeah, we get into great discussions on forum based versus codebased development agreements.

»Yes. Well, I think I mean general plan based on how things are coming and and the more I've been like seeing us get involved in development agreements enforcing private open space, it's just more for us to manage the city.

»So, just a side note on on that, I think Nate Uh we are working on a grant application for a comprehensive code update in kind of on the tales of our general plan update. And I think I think we could

»that's the process you made plan update.

»Yeah. And I I think we're going to take a very hard look not just I mean I feel like we've been taking little bites little bites at a time. It's really looking at the whole framework and yeah, I mean right now it's kind of it's an incentive based and really the the incentive is get more density if you get if you if you leave some open space and and the P and the RPD is like that too except with amenities as well. What do we have for a motion on this? Does anyone remember?

»How do you feel about voting? Any objections? Good discussion. Thank you for listening.

»Uh those in favor of first reading approval, please say I. Okay. Thank you.

»Anything for us to do or I didn't really hear anything at all.

»Sure. Bring us what we asked for. The only thing I heard is Garrett did suggest maybe to bring some examples. One thing because we we talked about this with planning commission. Uh we could spend money and have someone sketch something up, but I don't feel like I don't feel like if you see lines on paper, it's very helpful. So I can look at if there's if I can just kind of look around if there's some developments that would meet approximately meet this code and kind of show what they look like if that would be helpful.

»Yeah. He showed us we changed the code thinking that would be good. He showed us what that car would look like. We didn't like it and now we're changing it.

»Yeah. And we and and to be fair we did try to do that as staff. We did we did put in front of the ca the council here are the types of developments that could be like we did that when we changed the open space subdivision code.

»We did

»we did

»we looked at

»let let me go one more than that and I shouldn't even be allowing this discussion.

»Sorry I just wanted to be clear about about what to follow up on. We felt uneasy about 5,000 square foot lots, right? Did you feel uneasy about 5,000 foot ones?

»70 of them. No variation.

»Okay. Did you go to the Neielson development?

»Yes.

»And see 3500 square foot lots that we all okay with?

»I thought you said 40.

»Okay. Less than five. thing. I mean, so I mean that's the hard part. It's all in context. I mean,

»there's a range of possibilities with any of these, right? We can't

»That's pretty frustrating to work with for some involved, for sure. But yeah.

»Okay. Sorry, we left that run. Fencing.

»Want to keep going? Here we go. Fences.

»Council does mean that you want to do something different. We'll keep on the agenda because that's what you told me to do.

»Should we suspend the agenda?

»I'll make a motion to suspend the agenda.

»Have a motion to suspend the agenda to eliminate item 15. Is there a second? We'll second it from uh you can debate it if you want. I'd rather you just vote on those in favor to eliminate item 15 put on a future agenda who say I

»post. Good job there. Let's wrap it up with council and staff reports. Nathan, you want to go first? I don't think so. Good. Okay. Thank you.

»Uh just we have another little library up in our city. So get out there reading folks make books. This one's an Ander park up by the struction. It's very cute, very fun. Uh we have one more to be extended and painted if anyone's interested. Hey,

»I just wanted to ask you, did do you feel like the sign that we put up advertising that November 1st was the no more parking on the street is that effective?

»I have to follow up with that on what he's seen. I don't I don't know whether it has or not.

»I haven't heard anything myself. But I can I can follow up with that.

»Yeah.

»It's it's real quick. I I just want to publicly thank I said I would appreciate the friendship. So I just re you guys are awesome. I appreciate, you know, I I appreciate the fact that in here we can disagree, but we can do it with boys with, you know, Taylor made friends and everything else. I don't think that exists in the places we can actually have open debate here and I love that. I hope we can continue to keep it going. So that's all I have. I wanted to express how much I've appreciated being able to work with the city and the council and the mayors. It's been um really a privilege and an honor to be part of the city council over these last six years. And like Garrett said, one of the things I've admired the most is the fact that we can be on completely different pages. I know I often start off at one spot with my preparation through our discussions. I feel like I end up in a better place. Um because of sometimes disagreeing because of having different ideas presented and I feel like it serves the city really well. So I just want to express gratitude for being able to be part of truly the deal between council was both disagree and get someone really.

»Yeah. He's awesome and thanks for the opportunity to uh serve for the last eight years. Uh, I think thanks to those guys for running. I think we got a good city, good people. And I I think not for terms, but I think there's a lot of people that can do a good job and I'm excited for that. It's It's interesting when you get a lot of input that you either run from public service or you run from it. So, I appreciate you guys running for it in one thing. It's been an honor and thanks, mayor. I know my first time uh you know you get nervous even now you get nervous speaking and Dustin was gone a lot you made us do mayor protest a couple times really but anyways gets out of your comfort zone appreciate all the support from everybody thank you

»yeah I I just want to add to what you said

»the key all this is listening to one another and and I don't think I convinced anyone tonight that we do listen. We came we might come to a different conclusion and that's what you guys are talking about but we really do listen to one another cuz I mean hard problems are solved by approaching things from a lot of different points of view. Listen, listen, listen and then we might agree in the end and we might not. So, I'm I'm going to start making that a theme as I talk to people. It's listening. Let's verbally commit to listening to one another even if we don't come to the same conclusion. So, you guys are great at that. I appreciate especially K and this I do have one that's not quite as much fun to talk about. I would we we I met with some citizens And one of the biggest things they were upset about was an what we call an illegal subdivision of property because they went through and we've had this come up a couple of times. I was the victim of this in a different town in Cardon City when I thought I had purchased a piece of property that was entitled to certain things within the city and these people thought the same thing, but they had not been through our subdivision process even though it was recorded by the county. And I I would like our attorney to see whether that term illegal subdivision Tom gave me some strong opinions on this as he was coming and going. He said that was an illegal subdivision. I said, "Well, it wasn't illegal. It was just didn't go through our process." He said, "That should never been have been recorded by the by the county. I would like to look into the legality of what appears to be a subdivision on the parcel viewer that in fact hasn't been through the city process to have an entitlement on that subdivision. It's only been through a title company and I don't want to put you on spot. I think you're in a great position to help us figure this out.

»Okay. So,

»do you want my quick take on that? I won't take a lot of time.

»My my understanding is or the way I understand it is yes, it is illegal because it they didn't meet

»it is not legal to do that. It it is against city code, but it is not I've been told by the recorders office it is not their responsibility to see too that it's done legally. It's the city. It the the we're the only one we we were the only ones that can police that. And we had we've had discuss I I had we had a discussion with the a prior uh county recorder and several city representatives that had this same frustration and that's they say their hands are tied with state code and what they have to record and everything. And so we can follow up uh and we we do have some processes at least to catch it after it happens, not before. Um but I I I guess we're not alone in this. And it's

»So thank you for that. I know who to talk to now. That's the state.

»We have state legisl

»this is causing grief for everybody involved. So, you need to you need to have a report. I'll I'll leave it at that.

»Yeah, I would suggest talking to other city representatives that have dealt with the same issue and so that you can you could almost get a coalition on this issue if you want.

»I'm interested. I think the people that have been through the process and think they have an entitlement and then then the city's a bad the big bad city says, "No, Brad hasn't been subdivided."

»Yeah.

»In fact, you did something illegal. Those I don't even like those words.

»It's a class C misdemeanor in our ordinance. But

»who do we throw in? Who do we charge with the class C? The land owner or the county?

»No. No. The land owner?

»The subdivider that didn't subdivide properly. Okay, we should move on.

»Yeah. Yeah.

»Thanks.

»Anything for you?

»Uh, yeah, just real brief. tomorrow the if if any of you can make it the USU landscape architect students which we we've engaged with Aaron was up there um and they're they're presenting on some concepts for the Nibbi Meadows Park and that that area 1200 West um that will help inform our our design in that park. So we're pretty excited. There's

»10 undergraduate groups and then two graduate students that are going to be presenting.

»It's at 1:30 if you make it up there

»up on campus. No, it's it's up on campus. It's it's at the fine arts visual building. I sent out a an appointment, but it it's that building. It's on the corner of 7th North and uh 12 East Kitty corner from where the Aggie Ice Cream. Everyone seems to know where that is, but right right there. So, if you can make it, I I think it'll be interesting and informing. It's the same group. If you if any of you were heard, uh there was a group that did a project for Morgan Farm. It's the same class, same professor but and then similarly next week uh we're going to have a joint workshop ahead of the planning commission meeting. So it's going to be at 5:30 next Thursday and that's going to be a different uh landscape architect environmental planning class. And that one uh we we had a we had a workshop on that previously kind of at the beginning of their project and now they're they've concluded it and they're they're they've got a lot of interesting ideas on the town center and open space and a lot of different topics that'll help inform our planning. So if you can make it to that that'd be great as well. It's all I got.

»Thank you. And on Monday, please come to our Christmas party. I believe you've RSVP. It's at 6 o'clock at the Desert Lily Gardens facility in Smithfield, which is absolutely beautiful. Um January 8th meeting, if you could um mark it on your calendars to come early, we have a photographer coming. We can have new council head shots and we'll do a new council group photo. council members that's following and if you could note that down a little bit earlier in your finance or however you want to be memorialized

»there's but there's buttons on that shirt at least

»do we need to schedule a swearing in meeting early in

»that we'll have the council meeting

»waiting time for very very first item.

»Um if you would like to request a judge, you can put when judge available otherwise um I'll be swearing.

»Thanks.

»That's all.

»Claire, do you have anything?

»The only is say thank you staff. I've been doing a lot on that vacation down in Arizona. And the entire time I was down there had nothing to worry my thanks to staff and

»you couldn't feel the mental wave just while you were you don't need me. It's really freaking nice too. So just really appreciate staff they

»Sorry. Can I have one more?

»Yeah. it I'm always fast. Um I spoke with the people I work with closest and they asked me to express our appreciation of council member Sweden and that we are at your disposal as city residents but also as friends and off the clock we would love to serve you in any capacity. Um gives us more creativity and ways to to love you as friends. So, please take advantage of that and let us know if you ever need any.

»No, I don't. If two council members want to hang out with me at 9:00 on any Saturday for the next two months, maybe more, that'll be here at 9:00. No more, not more than two. It's not a public meeting, but if anyone wants to swing you by, let me know. I can coordinate who's coming. I'm going to be here. December or January at least at nine o'clock just to talk about whatever. Okay, we're at the end of the agenda. Do I have any objection to a journey? Um, I'm gonna turn it over to Mayor Pro 10 K Swen