City Council 02/19/2026

»and that's an interesting road. You ready for more of this? is like $500. It's like comes out. It's a fetal finance to diver itself. You know, and proper land use. Um, so it's what it's very near and dear to my heart. I love it. I thought I would share one quick quote to inspire you to want to read it. Also, two quotes. I take it back. I'm going to share two very short quotes to inspire you to want to read this book. Um, since we are talking about our general plan and land use, and I know we're not specifically talking about land use tonight, but one of the topics we will be discussing with our general plan. Um, one quote that I really love, he is talking about um, how we need to think about land, right? So he says, "Quit thinking about decent land use as solely an economic problem. Examine each question in terms of what is ethically and aesthetically right as well as what is economically expedient. A thing is right when it tends to preserve the integrity, stability, and beauty of the biotic community. It's wrong when it tends otherwise." I like that. Um, and I think it reminds us that we need to think about land in in multiple ways, not just economically. Um I mean we we know that like what's the right plan to preserve for open space? Um it's not just economic value, it's also aesthetic. It's also um is it have a meaning to people? Um does it have significant meaning for the wilderness? Um I think I'll just leave it right there, but if anybody needs a good read, a Sand County Almanac by Aldo Leupold is just right right up there on the top of my list. So I would just recommend that.

»Thank you, Eric. That's terrific. Um, we could

»Oh, but we should

»I'm sorry.

»He asked if we have any copies of these in our little libraries and I said

»that's exactly where I was going. So, if you ask Cheryl to purchase that book and put it in the library, we can check it out and read it.

»Okay.

»And I think that's a great addition to the library from way you talk about it.

»Mhm. And that's an invitation for the rest of council too, including staff, planning commission, books that we should have available to us in our library. we we can have budget for that and check them out.

»Great.

»Okay. Thank you, Aaron. With that, I'll call the uh meeting to order and begin with the roll call. Randy, will you start us on that end, please?

»Randy Spalding,

»Nick Kinska, Garrett Mansel,

»Aaron Man,

»Nathan Lowerson,

»Jacobson, staff, you can introduce yourselves if you would.

»Justin Mullen, city manager.

»Tom Dickinson, city engineer.

»Cheryl Bodley, city recorder.

»Okay. Steve Elison, uh, public works director. We welcome you as as well and other folks that are here. Uh, thanks for coming out. We have some specific guests. Thanks for coming and we'll we'll get to you on the agenda. Okay, first let's talk about approval of meeting minutes and maybe you all have something there. If you want to, let's deal with minutes first if you'd like and then we'll talk about tonight's agenda. No. Yes. Did I read it wrong?

»No, you're good. You read perfectly. Make a motion to uh approve the meeting minutes with um couple of amendments for us to consider.

»Okay.

»I don't know if we need to bring them up, but if you guys want to look at them. Um I mean

»um Cheryl, you've seen the proposed amendments.

»Okay, let's look at them then. And let's get a second before we pull them up. Do we have a second second from uh Nick? Thank you.

»They in here in a word format or just the PDF.

»That's not an amendments, right?

»That's not it. Sorry.

»I don't see any name in the box.

»That's the one I meant in Bush.

»We'll get there. Got the rookie run the tech today.

»A little more.

»Better better. Good.

»Thank you.

»Everything there looked good. Um if you'd scroll to page eight, line 28. I believe it was um Council Member Manel that made the motion to amend, not Council Member Man. Okay. I'm going to ask consent on that motion to amend

»if that's the way you all remember it.

»Okay. I'll give you a minute.

»Are you clear on it, Garrett?

»Yeah.

»Okay. I'm asking for consent.

»Without objection, we'll make that change. Thank you. Uh, line 30 there looks like it repeats the language that was added to the resolution. So I guess whatever was adopted in the resolution is what should actually be in there. Right. So the motion was to adopt with that change.

»Yeah. So

»it's just repeated on there.

»Right.

»Uh without without objection.

»Okay. So thank you.

»Page nine uh line six through seven. I think our voting was actually the opposite This is the vote on this is important. This is

»the same resolution.

»The same resolution.

»Same resolution.

»It's the lines above it are accurate. Just that

»kind of format. The

»summary is the summary is okay. You all see your names there without objection. Make it so. Thank you. Uh and then the following are just uh grammatical and things like that. They don't involve voting. We can go over them or I can just send them to Cheryl.

»Um I'm I I trust Cheryl to say, "Yeah, it's grammatical and it's an improvement and if she feels otherwise, she can bring it back to council." Okay. Uh, so I'm not going to have a motion on that one. Okay. So, we have an amended set of minutes.

»I lied.

»Go to page 11 real quick.

»Okay.

»Sorry.

»Accidental lie.

»There's an accidental lie. Um,

»which line? Line 28 through 36 I think is a similar just kind of copied paste incorrect and incomplete line 35 and 36 of the summary. So

»um I think it was all in favor there.

»Yeah.

»So that was a vote.

»So that would be all in favor without objection.

»All right. So, we have accepted amendments and now you have an amended set of minutes for you to vote on or further discuss. Uh, seeing no discussion, those in favor of adopting the amended set of minutes, please say I.

»I. Any opposed? Okay. Make it. So, thank you, Cheryl. Thanks, Nate. Let's move on to tonight's agenda then. Agenda then, if you'd have a look at that. Take a motion.

»Make a motion to approve.

»Motion and second. Motion from Nate, second from Nick to approve tonight's agenda. Any discussion on that? Seeing none, those in favor, please say I.

»I.

»Okay. Any opposed? Uh, unanimous. Thank you. Uh, next we have a public comment period. This is a chance for nibbly citizens or anyone else to talk to the council about anything that you think uh the council should hear. Uh, I I warned that unless it's on a public noticed agenda, we can't get into a policy discussion, but that doesn't mean we can't hear from you and we can exchange information if it's appropriate. Um, in light of other folks that are here for other agenda items, you'll see as you come to the podium, we ask to keep comments to two minutes. And so, um, we encourage that and we think you probably stay on task pretty well, uh, by having two minutes to address the council. Now, I have a list and so you don't have to sign up, but I do have people. Jen Weekes, we'll open the public comment period and uh, ask you to speak to us.

»I'm Jen Weekes. I've lived in Nibbli for 20 years. Um, several of you probably talked to my husband yesterday about what happened to us um, with your code enforcement. So, I'm coming to propose that we make some changes with our code enforcement. On yesterday morning, we woke up to a violation of code. And, um, let me rewind for a second. Tuesday night, I went outside, made sure I went out in the dead of cold at 11:45 to move my cars off of the street to make sure that I was accommodating the street code. So, I was surprised to find that I had tickets. Yes, you heard tickets plural two because two of my vehicles were blocking the sidewalk. The backends of the vehicles were hanging over the sidewalk. So, I received a sidewalk violation. So, I my situation I have older kids. I've got college age kids living me, high schoolers. Everybody has a place to go. We have four cars that have to be off the street and in my driveway every single night. It requires a lot of musical cars. It requires a lot of effort on my part. So, when I get nailed with not never a warning, just two $40 tickets. So, I'm in at $80 now. And the problem is is I'm not just in at $80 today. I very well could get another ticket tonight or tomorrow night or every single night for the next six weeks because there's nowhere else to park. I can't park on my grass because I will receive a code violation. So, what I'm saying is that we need to make some changes. There needs to be some sort of being reasonable in this situation. I should be able to coexist with Nibbly City and we should be able to work together. Possibly we could enforce the sidewalk violation code during certain hours. I checked my Ring doorbell, but the last two weeks between the hours of 1000 p.m. and 7:00 a.m. There were zero pedestrians on my sidewalk except for one. The guy giving me my code violation was the only person who stepped on my sidewalk for the past two weeks between the hours of 10 p.m. and 7 a.m. There should not be pedestrians in the dead of night. I don't feel that by accommodating code one, not parking on the street, I'm automatically violating code two hanging over the sidewalk. There has to be some give and take here. I'm doing my best and I have no solutions except for kicking kids out of the house, getting rid of cars that we desperately need or moving. That's all I've got.

»Okay. Thank you. I appreciate you uh coming to address us. Holly Weston, would you like to speak to us?

»I'm Holly Weston. I am here to offer moral support for my friends uh Jen and Jared. also here to talk about code violations. Um, while I haven't had the experience that Jen has, um, our kids have been ticketed for parking on the street overnight. And while we completely understand the need for a winter parking enforcement, that makes complete sense. You got to have cars out of the way if you want your snow plows to do a good job and get those streets cleared. Every single time my boys have been ticketed, the roads have been bone dry. There hasn't been any rain or snow in the forecast. This has been the warmest winter on record. I'm just asking for reasonable addition to the code that if there's two inches of snow, then the the cars need to be moved off the street. But what's the point of having cars on the street in the wintertime when there's no snow plow? It's it doesn't make any sense to me. So, I would ask that you reconsider your codes, not only for the benefit of our street, but also for Jen and all of those who are trying so hard to play musical cars every night in their driveway. Thanks. Thank you, Holly. Um, just by way of information, we we have talked about these issues a number of times in the last year and we're happy to talk about them again, council. I'm happy to put this on an agenda. Um, specifically as evidence that uh we have considered changes to the parking in the street code, we in fact change the hour. So that's evidence that uh as a date and time when the council was accepting input and also uh discussing that that resulted in a change of the hours that cars would be prohibited on the street. I'm not I'm not talking about whether that was a good policy, bad policy, or if we got to a better place, bad place. I'm just saying that's evidence of of us continually working to find the right code. And then there's also a discussion to have with council, which we've had on a number of occasions, and I'm happy to have it again, about the right way to do code enforcement. So, we look forward to that discussion. Hopefully, you all pay attention. um Utah public notice, you can sign up for a subscription that you will get an email telling you what's on our agenda every time we have a meeting and love to have you be a part of that discussion. Okay, anyone else wish to address the council? All right, with that then I'll close the public comment period and let's move into not sure with Levi out and I don't see a planning commissioner here. Uh I don't I don't anticipate that we have a uh planning commission report. Okay.

»Did it get cancelled?

»Yes.

»Well, there's a report.

»Nothing to report.

»I didn't know that. Was it I'm going to ask uh why it was cancelled.

»I just was looking for the minutes. Okay.

»Online and saw that it had been cancelled. So,

»I'm going to take a stab at this.

»Okay.

»Next council meeting if I'm wrong, but there was really nothing on the agenda. So, they just ended up canceling that one. Uh I did attend the one prior and there was some training to the new commissioners

»and uh we coming up in the next council or commission meeting. It's going to be the 26th of February. I know we have a reszone request and there's a conditional use permit for a new wellhouse that we're for the city. So those are the two items that I know.

»Okay. Thanks. Questions for Tom. He's he's our expert tonight. I'm glad that we didn't cancel a meeting for lack of a quorum. That's good news to me. And we haven't had that problem for a long time. But if we go back enough years, and I'm saying years, we want to make sure that we're we're staffing the planning commission with quorum. Okay. Um Learon Hansen is here from Connect to talk to us about transit in Cash Valley and especially in Nibbi. Learon is our representative uh on the connect board and with the restructuring of the board a couple years ago, you represent Nibi, also Milville, and also Hyum.

»That's right.

»Have I got it right? Okay, Laren, thanks for coming and uh if if you have something to tell us, we we're all ears.

»Okay, awesome. Yeah, thanks so much for having me here this evening. I really appreciate it. Uh it's fun to come talk to you guys and give an update and report and also I really encourage um questions and if I can get any information to you guys um I'll take that back to Todd and uh and the board, our team and get get you any information you want. So, um, but yeah, I'm excited to give just an update on, uh, on Connect Transit's accomplishments for this last year. We're working really hard. Uh, we've got a great board. It was restructured. We went from like 19 member board down to nine members. Um, our board has a diver, sorry, nervous, diverse background. Um, we all, you know, we all have families and live in uh the communities in Cash Valley. And we've got people in with finance backgrounds and u a geneticist and uh someone's in media and uh I'm a homemaker and um all kinds of things. So it's fun. It's a lot of fun. And um our our board members, we are so committed uh to providing the transportation and efficient public transit for this valley and uh and are working steadily at that. Um, so just a couple updates. Uh, our pool service, the microtransit,

»which isn't in Nibbi, but it is in in Millville and Providence River Heights, uh, that utilization, it's it is just growing. It's really strong. Uh, we provided 7,294 trips in 2025. So, that was great. Uh, some more fun numbers, the overall system. So all of all of uh connect transit um it continues to grow. We had uh 1,516 244 sorry 516,244 trips uh last year. So that's a lot. That was a lot uh for nibbly route 11 which we know is not as perfect as we want. We know there's some some things some fine-tuning and tweaking we could do there and we we really welcome uh any ideas you guys have or input on that. Um but nibbli in or I'm sorry route 11 in 2025 provided 55,23 trips for for your residents. So that was wonderful. Um, so one thing we're really excited about is do this uh comprehensive public outreach and study that we're doing. So we've retained Nelson Nygard. Um, it's a professional transit planning firm and they're going to assist us in updating both our short and long-term plans. So, we're doing this big study uh to assess needs and and um across our valley as it grows and how can we better provide efficient effective service. Right? So, as part of this effort, we're going to be conducting a comprehensive public outreach process to better understand community needs and service priorities. and we will be co coordinating closely with your city staff and to help us get this information and gather meaningful public input that matters so much. In addition, we'll review the transportation and land use plans of various cities to ensure alignment and identify opportunities for integration. And we'll have various touch points with you throughout this process. So, we'll be in contact and we really want any input you guys have, any ideas. So, and we we anticipate this should be done uh the planning process by January 2027.

»That's your due date or public input due date?

»Um I that's a great question. I just have

»the planning process should be completed by then. So, um I guess just a couple little or other numbers that are exciting. Um our total system hours, so the whole system 92,427 hours and the total system miles covered was 1,380,745. So

»that's an annual number.

»Yeah.

»Okay. Thank you.

»Yeah. Annual. So that's what we did last year. Do you guys have any questions or comments? Anything I can take back? Yeah, go ahead. Um, are you seeing a trend of riders increasing or decreasing or staying the same like 24 to 25? What does the wrership look like?

»Um, I think it is increasing. So, from what I remember, and I can't I can't tell you off the top of my head like that exact number, but I will I'm going to write that down and we'll get that back to you, but I believe it is increasing. So, okay. Anything else?

»I've got a question for you. How um as far as like a data collection process, a do you guys collect any data on writership and b if you do like how granular does it go um in terms of how you're planning for future stops and where the needs are and all that kind of stuff. I'm just curious how that works.

»Yeah, also a great question. Yes. Um we definitely collect data on wrership. Um, so that the technology on the buses now scans. I used to be a bus driver back in like 2007 and we would sit and click when people would get on and then like periodically I had a clipboard and I would mark at certain stops like how many people and that was how we collected data. But it's a lot more I mean technology has improved so much. So it just keeps track as people get on now. So that that's a great question. I I believe on the website um like on the homepage it'll tell you like the daily number of per

»riders. Yeah.

»Okay. Interesting. Okay.

»Yeah. Yeah. Right there. Daily passenger trips.

»So that's definitely something we keep a lot of track of. So

»So that's the systemwide number.

»Yeah.

»Right.

»And we can get you

»Did you give us a number on route 11 just now? Yeah. Um,

»can you give us

»55,000? That was

»trips. Trips. Well, not

»trips. So, a trip is

»every time someone gets on a bus.

»I use the bus for commuting, for personal use, for um

»another bus

»getting

»that would be like two trips. So, if you step on if you step foot on a bus, ride it somewhere, that's one trip.

»So, so was person is a trip. I was right. A person is a trip basically.

»So, and with the loop

»where

»the loop kind of um I think the numbers went down a little bit because of um people weren't getting off and onto another one uh bus as much. But but yeah, that wrership everything's growing a lot. So,

»I think 55,000 that was a year. Is that what she said? Yeah. Manual.

»Yeah. So, so one year 2025 route 11 just route 11 55,23 trips.

»So, and that really is nibbly.

»Yeah.

»So much of nibbly. So, that's that's exciting.

»Uh I I'll ask a follow-up to next qu next question. Um do you how can we help you collect public input for this planning process? Oh, that's a great question. I'm going to take that back to so how

»right

»um if it's we we'd love to hear how we can cooperate with you on that whether it's you mentioned staff

»um if there are public surveys that we can help push out. I'm not I'm not necessarily saying that I think we survey our citizens a lot. We do

»and they might be getting tired of us doing surveys, but we'd love to talk to you about that method of collecting public input so it feed into your plan.

»Okay. Yeah, I'll take that back to Todd. We'll get you.

»And of course, Levi Roberts,

»who is a former connect.

»He was a driver. We were drivers at the same time.

»He was a He wasn't connect at the time.

»Formerly previously known. No. Formerly known as whatever it is now known as connect.

»Yeah.

»So, you know, Levi, he's our city planner. He'd be a great asset to you.

»Yes. Yeah.

»Go ahead.

»Just wondering if Christine trained you.

»She did.

»Oh, no. That's awesome.

»Christine trains all of us.

»She did.

»Le comment.

»Yeah.

»So, Learon, I was working with Todd and Jodie Kimble at one point.

»Oh, yeah. in the construction of 1200 West. I don't know if you follow the local and the regional news, but we just finished 1200 West that connects Logan's 10th West all the way down to Hyum now. We just finished that this year. So, we did reserve some space for an inlane bus stop right around the Frisbee golf course on the northbound side.

»Okay.

»And then there's also another uh area that can be used for a southbound pickup or drop off right there. So, I'd like to explore opportunities or just maybe talk about future routes and stops there.

»Okay. Future routes off of TW 12 West.

»12 West. Yes.

»Okay.

»So, that I mean that's a road that'll connect it not will it now does finally the future caught up to me. Connects the Hyram to the Logan Cash airport.

»Yes.

»Be at 10th West.

»Okay. So I I understand there was some internal restructuring with connect as well like Jody was over roots and maintenance and now he they've separated that. I don't know who the new

»operational manager.

»Thank you.

»Uh Jillian Cros Croser

»did maybe make that connection for me. That'd be great too.

»Okay.

»Thank you.

»Tom Dickinson is our city engineer.

»Tom Dickson.

»Perfect. Thank you so much. Okay. Other questions, Garrett?

»Yeah. You know, I I appreciate the bus. My son rides it every day for work.

»Wonderful.

»And uh that was actually a good thing. And you know, thanks to them and the Bear River Association, which has someone come and show him how to use the app. Went and railroad with him one day. That's all it took. He had it memorized. And now he goes, he explores this valley. He uses 11 to get on and 12 to get off. wonderful.

»Uh because 12 is a little closer that way to the house and anyway, he rides the two routes, but I definitely would have some input on maybe some other places to put some stops, but we do appreciate the service.

»Oh, that's so great to hear. I love that and that's I mean that's what we're all about. So getting getting people to the places and and people that they need to go to and giving him that kind of freedom and independence. So

»yeah, he doesn't drive,

»so he has some challenges there. So, but it's been great.

»It's great.

»Anything else? Um, you you talked about microtransit. Um, so that's a successful program, do you feel?

»Yeah. Yeah, the microtransit continues to grow. um you know living I I live in Millville and so we had you know um we had a fixed route just on Main Street basically that just one of our big buses going through and we've grown just so much east of Main Street and people weren't using that fixed route. It's just too far to walk kind of thing. And and now with the microtransit there's so many more stops. Um I think in that area Providence like the microtransit area we had like 20 something 25 stops or something on a fixed route and now there's it's doubled and for microtransit stops and people are using it so much. So

»okay are you aware of what microtransit is? Okay. Yeah, that just Yes, it's pool. It just So, anywhere in River Heights, Providence, Milville area, you can go anywhere in there and also to the transit center.

»Mhm.

»And so, um, if you if you take it to Walmart, you can connect to the loop or you could turn ride it all the way to the transit center.

»So, it worked really good.

»Do you think that might be offered in Nibi

»someday and maybe when? That's a great question if you guys are interested in it.

»Question statement.

»No, that's a great question. I we definitely are looking at other areas in the valley to to use microtransit. So, if you guys have interest in it, um I'm going to write that down.

»What do you all think?

»Absolutely.

»Okay. I actually inquired about that in the beginning, but it was an option. So thankful for coming out on Gallen Bear River to kind of come and teach him how.

»Okay,

»thank you Le appreciate your service to connect and to us.

»Thanks for letting me represent Nibi. It's such a such a pleasure. So thanks for letting me come tonight.

»Um I know we have contact information for Lear and if council wants to follow up with Learn, I'm sure you'd be happy to hear from us, right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'll take these back to the board, back to Todd, and get answers to your questions. And I just really appreciate you guys letting me come tonight. And

»um so, thank you for the work that you do. Appreciate it.

»Thanks, Leonard. Thank you, Eric.

»Night.

»Uh next, let's move on to uh storm water master plan, which

»plugged up the whole Utah public notice website, I suspect. I think

»I thought everyone was here for the storm water in the packet

»apparently.

»Is that in our packet? I I just went to see.

»It is. It's a fairly large document. It's

»okay.

»Presenting for us is Steven Wood with Sunrise Engineering. We've been working together on this plan. I I I seem to remember putting the request for proposal out in 2023ish 24. So, it's been a long process. We've been through a couple of iterations and just refine the heck out of it. I'm sure Stephen is sick and tired of working with Nibbly by now. But Stephen, I'll let you take it from here. Um, we don't have a clicker, so you're just going to have to like nod, wink, or do something so I can advance slides.

»Sounds good.

»Have a pointer though.

»We do have two pointers, but

»pointer won't see the

»won't see the pointer, but

»Do you need a pointer, Stephen? What do you have planned for us here?

»Sure, I'll take a pointer. Why not? Just in case.

»Welcome, Stephen. Thank you for your work on this.

»And for the record, I I don't know how much the council gets informed of your staff's actions. Your your staff has been absolutely wonderful to work on this. We've worked very closely with Steve and the primary contact there with Chad over the stormwater and Tom and Justin and and Tom has been the primary contact on this. As Tom indicated, it's it's been a long long development for this project. There's been a lot of and things that we've looked at, talked about, discussed, and your staff has been really really quite top-notch to work with. So, thank you. Well, by way of introduction again, my name is Steven Wood. I'm the uh project manager over the stormwater master plan for Nibbli City and also by way of introduction Cameron Bird is also with me also with from Sunrise and another big engineer on the project was Haimeing Pong but he wasn't able to make it tonight but just to let you know a couple individuals on it but let's go ahead and jump right in there. Tom, my goal is to be under 20 minutes unless you have questions. So there you go. There's my goal. So few hundred pages of document to get through. So these are the couple items. These are the the main points that I'd like to hit. And going in order from data collection to hydraulic parameters of your storm water systems, existing conditions, problem areas. Um big surprise, probably no surprise to you. You have high groundwater here that has issues that has significant impacts to your storm water. Different type of solutions of managing storm water, regionalization of ponds versus regionalization of conveyance. um your interaction with your uh three irrigation networks and neighbors very very important for Nibi City talk about your capital improvement projects and the TLP stands for uh trunk line projects and we'll get into that that item and then of course the impact fee and the user rates and what that means financially and planning. So data collection I broke this up into two pieces. This is the first piece of the city infrastructure if you will. So, there are there was over and Tom, you're going to have to read this number for me because you can see it. That number right there.

»Can't read it. There's a big green light on it.

»That's why he's got a screen there.

»Are you talking the storm water mains?

»Yes.

»68,218 ft.

»That's how much feet of pipe that you have below ground that manages your storm water system that Steve has the great pleasure of managing and making sure is functional and clean. And it's not a small task. Um, you also have about 92 different ponds and basins here, but those are actually broken up into three different categories. Nibbli City owns a good handful of them, but also so does UDOT. And there are private ponds throughout your community. And a lot of that maintenance, the private ponds, yes, they're private, but it also falls on the public works to be aware of those items because they are affecting the public at large. And so we went through and we identified those. We actually surveyed the ponds in terms of their volume, their depth, their perimeter, their areas, how their interconnectivity, and actually mapping all that out. One thing that is important to also point out is your LEDs. Those are these light blue areas in the document. And again, this is this is an exhibit pulled right out of the master plan, but these are light blue areas. These are led or low impact developments. These are developments that have put forth different storm water management besides curbon gutter and boxes. Um, they use more natural swelling with the roads. In general, they work well, but they require more upkeep and maintenance and more vigilance and making sure homeowners are maintaining those swells and not filling them in and they're viable for ongoing storms, which is difficult and it's it becomes a very difficult thing for uh the public works to manage and take into account. So, it's just an important thing to recognize. there isn't a a a typical throughout the entire city. There are pockets that change from time to time. So, we went through and we looked at all of this data and then we combined this data with the next piece which is your irrigation district. There are over 54 miles of piping canals that run through the Nibbi City area that belong to the primary three irrigation companies and that would be the Nibbly Blacksmith Fork Irrigation Company, the College Irrigation Company and the Clear Creek Irrigation Company. Now, the interaction and we'll we'll get more into the interaction between the irrigation networks and the storm water systems, but they are both independent of each other and highly intertwined. And the relationship between them is is can be very good, it can be very bad. And we'll go through all that here in a minute. But just so you know, we actually went through and identified those 54 miles of pipe. We identified 374 structures of irrigation of either turnouts or interactions with the storm water where grates are located where storm water injects into the irrigation systems where irrigation systems may over actually over top into uh storm systems. And between those three companies, over 4,200 acres of ground are serviced and connected by these series of pipes and ditches. So the storm water isn't just uh your collection and therefore getting rid of the storm water, but it's also distribution of it at times throughout the community. So now I want to talk a little bit I mean gathering all that data in together and then what does all that data mean together and so pulling that into a full hydraulic analysis of looking at your storm water sheds. So I want to go over a couple of the different parameters for the hydraulic evaluation. And one of them is your subbasins. And what we call this is this is if you want to think about it, these are the little bowls inside your city of where the water collects. In undeveloped areas, these areas are driven by natural topography. The hills, the slopes, the crests, all that kind of stuff. With developed areas, this is driven by neighborhood layout. developers are required to manage all storm water within their project. And so what they do is they will artificially change it from topography controlled to curb and gutter and man-made elevation control. And so you again, I apologize that this is kind of a blown out view, but we broke up Nibbly City into 125 different subbasins of identifying where these areas get collected, what streets break, when they break, where they break, what development is actually collecting it, where is the pipe, what what pipes are bringing it to, what basin. One thing that's really interesting is you have this massive area up here. That's one big basin, but then you have a tiny little basin over here. And so these basins are all driven by their hydraulic direction, if you will. One thing that's very unique about Nibbi City is you have the Blacksmith Fork River cutting through your east bench that essentially creates a hydraulic barrier between the developed area of Nibi and the undeveloped hillside. A lot of the other communities going up further north have to worry about the sheet flow that comes off of those ranges. Nibbly City doesn't have to. It's a very unique uh item for you here in Cache Valley where a lot of your other sister cities have to worry about that eastern slope and what that does to your city. You don't have to, which is actually a huge benefit. Um, case in point, and Tom probably knows this very well from his time with Logan and probably Justin too, the the debris basins that have to be installed up on the east bench and Logan just to manage the intermediate large watershed events. They're not streams. They're not ongoing rivers, but they're just one second they're there and the next second they're gone. And if you don't manage it, it can wipe out some stuff. you are lucky and are fortunate that you have that blacksmith fork river that creates that natural barrier for you. Um, just a thing of caution, not a thing of caution, but things something to be aware of is as the city does grow and expands further east, that concern of the storm water impact of that eastern bench will become more of a true concern for Nibi City. Right now that river pro provides that boundary but as you extend development up that direction those considerations will become a larger storm water concern. Right now it's it's quite nice as well as you have the Hyram Slooh on the west side that actually helps get all of the storm water out of your city. So you have a great barrier up front and you have a great outlet on the west. It's rather unique and it works quite well. So that was kind this is just something you don't get to control. This is something you got to deal with. But luckily for you, it works in your favor. We'll jump to the next piece. So this is just a continuation. So besides breaking it up into boundaries, then we got to look at soil types and look at your composition of the geology below the ground. Each one of these shaded areas represents a different geological boundary that has been identified by the NRCS and their soil surveys. Just for uh overview, the nibbly silty lom clay boundary is actually covers about 30% of nibbly city. And what that is is that is and I know that sounds kind of silly, but that is the technical classification for it is somewhat poorly drained. I don't know what geologists got to do that, but what the HGC means is that's your hydraulic group and that is graded into A, B, C, and D. If you want to think about it, A's are your rocks, your cobbles. B's are getting down into your smaller cobbles and sands. Your C's are your silts and your loms. And your D's are your clays. The soils that are a classification in D, they just don't drain well. Um so you can see I mean 30% of it is that primary nibbly city clay lom which is a hydraulic sea. Then you got 20% and which is another group C the green zone lom. You do have about 15% of your city that is in a somewhat excessively drained gravel lom. Um it's kind of interesting. Sunrise has unique experience in this regard. 20 I don't know maybe 15 years ago when Nibbli went from septic to sewer. Uh we were actually the consulting engineers on that project to design your sewer system and install that. And I wasn't around with Sunrise at the time but my uh my office manager Scott was and he told me that when they were installing that pipe at 15 ft deep they had rivers running underneath the city. I mean three they had trash pumps and dewatering it to the hands of 3,000 gallons a minute just pulling it out within 18 feet subsurface. So you have this really interesting lower geology where you've got some very very tight areas. This big yellow area is one of those nibbly silty clay looms but then you have intermingling gravel veins that cross through the city center. So you have areas that don't drain at all and then you have areas that can take water all day. makes it very interesting for your storm water conditions. So, and then the remaining 30% of your city is a wide range of soil types, but generally you have more grally silt grally and sandy stuff to the east and you have more silt clay loms to the west. What this what you do have control over is your land use. How this impacts your storm water is the if you want to think about it impervious area. how much concrete, how much rooftop you're going to be putting in these development areas, your residential areas. Um, for a small quarter acre lot, if you want to think about it, usually about 50% of that lot gets covered either in driveway or roof. So for every quarter acre of development, an eighth of an acre just got hardscaped, which means that air that water has to shed somewhere. And then you put in your roads and then you lose another usually 10 to 15% of that development area. So when development is done, anywhere between 60 and 70% of that developed area is now heartscaped. As you get into higher density type uh multi-level housing or highdensity um complexes that may be a commercial residential mix, that percentage just goes up. Your commercial areas and your industrial areas usually end up 100% heartscaped. parking lot, rooftop, manufacturing, storage, warehouse. A lot of that area ends up getting hardscaped. Your agricultural is is a huge huge benefit to you where they virtually no heartscape. So, your zoning and how you go about your zoning and looking at your future land use greatly impacts the amount of storm water generated, if you will, and how much should be retained on site. And so it's just moving into that future discussion. Again, this is now your future land use. You're breaking it up. You've got 21% of your town's going to be in that low density residential. That low density, I see that as your quarter acre, your quarter acre lots. And that's if you want to think about 21% of your town, 21% of 6,000 acres. Take a half of that. 10% right there. You got 600 acres of hardscape in that one line item, if you will, in terms of land use and how to manage that. Man, Tom is awesome. Right on top. He's keeping time, D.

»He's just keeping you going, man.

»Yep. So, another hydraulic parameter to understand is looking at the precipitation and understanding rainfall coming into your town. Something that's important to note is your past storm water master plan was built on this hydraulic curve. This is a 25-year storm that drops down 967 in. And what that 24 or 25 year means is that every 25 years you should see this storm once. So a 100redyear storm you should see that storm once every hundred years or every year you have a 1% chance of seeing it. For this master plan, we did not use this storm that was uh selected during the 2015 master plan, but we used this gray curve, this orange curve, and the blue curve. The biggest difference is because storm water standards have changed significantly over the past 10 years, both on a state level and individual municipalities. We are now uh required by the MS4 permits which is Nibi is governed underneath to be regulating certain storm water storms. And these are significantly higher impact storms. You can see the gray one it drops down 2.4 in. The blue one is 3 point sorry the blue one right here that's two 2 and a/4 in and then our orange one is up to three 3.02 in. And so looking at those different curves, I mean, so you're going to see a lot more in our evaluation, you're going to see a lot more storm water generated in terms as compared to your 2015 master plan. So that's going to be a big shift. We're going to say a lot more ponds are now undersized because we're predicting more runoff. And this is to better accommodate uh some of the shifting weather patterns. So now we get into some of the results. So out of your detention ponds, out of your storm water basins, there are 93 that we totally evaluated, 72 are deficient. So 72 of your def your p your ponds are deficient in size. Again, this will get a little bit better. I wanted to start out with kind of some worst case scenarios. Please be aware that your storm water ponds that were built were built to an older standard. As standards improve, that doesn't mean the pond magically got bigger. It's if it got subdivided and designed 20 years ago, it was designed to that standard and it hasn't been changed since. So, of course, it's going to be undersized when compared to today's standards. So, just be aware of that concept. Yeah. But 72 of your ponds are currently deficient when compared to the current storm water standards and 49 of your conveyance routes out of your 161s are undersized. So your conveyance routes or your pipelines, your canals, those methods of moving water around. On this side is just some a snippet of what we are dealing with. So this is one of those subbasins. This is actually the golf course, the disc golf course area. Those ponds actually work together to take care of a very large area. But in the modeling, we actually have to route and actually program in all the piping and all the basins and how the water moves from subbasin to subbasin to subbasin, when it overflows, how it overflows and how much actually stays in the pond to evaporate or uh filter away. So all that we took into account. So out of the 76 ponds that failed, this is a better understanding. This is a chart, just a bar chart identifying your required volume divided by available volume. So yes, 72 are undersized, but you can see the vast majority of them are undersized by 5, 10, 80%. You've got three primary outliers that those pawns, yes, they're truly undersized. But even though you have 72 ponds that are under unders sized, they're undersized by an acceptable limit that doesn't create a risk to your public. Yes, there is a couple of ponds that we should be concerned about. And it was kind of funny because we pointed out which pawns they were and Steve said, "Yep, I already knew that from the experience that he has of working with them." So that was actually quite comforting to know. You do have a series of ponds that are o oversized and one of those are the the ponds around the golf the disc golf course. Those are oversized and there's capacity there that can be utilized to alleviate other areas within the community. So not only I think this is just a better representation than the the hard number of 72 that are deficient. So looking through those results again uh this was the areas that were identified through the uh mathematical computations of the ponds and reaches that were undersized. Something that's in important to note is the density of problem areas get greater on the west side than on the east side. And what that is is if there's a pond that's unders sized over here that means it releases its water and you have a cascading problem. everything downstream of it gets overwhelmed. So instead of having a hundred projects to do, you only have 10. It's just that one thing failed and therefore everything below it fails. So don't look at this as a glowing Christmas tree. Understand that it's there are cascading failures that we could that we have identified that help target your efforts in the future. So we took this, we broke it down. Oh, this is a fun one. Tom, go ahead.

»This is a fun one, and I'm really curious at this, and I I do want to I do want to show up hands. How many of you either have a sump pump in your basement or your neighbor or someone you know has one? What would you say that that How often do you think those sump pumps are running?

»Yes.

»So, Steve, this is something that I I really got to hand it to your public works. Steve actually went out uh we provided a framework for him to help map it, but he and his crew went out and actually identified over 119 locations that they notice of sump pumps in the community. And you may be wondering why we're worried about sump pumps, but so 99 sump pumps are operating in the springtime. 11 of them are operating in the spring and winter. Four of them in the spring and fall. One of them operates spring, fall, and winter. three of them in spring, summer, and fall. And one of them operates year round. And we mapped them out and you can see them. They're mostly on the west side. This map particularly is identifying what Cash County and the USGS has helped identify of groundwater in the area. This orange area is groundwater that is about 48 inches down. Pretty shallow groundwater. And you can notice if you actually overlay this over the soil, this is all your gravel soils where the ground water is deeper. All of this is your silt and clays and loms. It holds it up higher.

»All of these little blue dots are where those sump pumps are located. Now, what's the impact of this? Uh, go ahead and hit the next slide if you would, Tom. If we just go and we assume that each one of these pumps, and now this is an under assumption, but let's assume that each one of these pumps is a 1-in discharge, has a maximum flow capability of 12 gallons per minute, and operates only 50% of the season that they're in. For case in point, this is a pump spec that I pulled off of from Home Depot's website. There are currently 220 of these pumps available at the Logan store. It can do 68 gallons per minute and it's a half horsepower motor. So I brought this in here just mostly to say we are going with a 12gallon minute conservative value of what these things are running at when in reality these things are probably closer to 40 50 gallons a minute. This is your typical sump pump. So we went through this calculation and said all right we're going to say that each one of these pumps and is flowing 12 gallons a minute and operating only 50% of the season. At the end of the year, your residents have pumped over 113 million gallons of water. Let's put that into perspective.

»That's 384 acre feet of water. That's enough to water a uh almost a 100 acre field of alalfa with a duty point of 3.5 acre feet. That's enough water to provide for your culinary needs for Nibi City at a uh average day demand of 2,000 gallons a minute for 2.5 years. You could fill 172 Olympic swimming pools with that much water.

»I don't want you to think this is wasted water. This is water that residents are they would be flooding their basement. They're not doing something wrong,

»but they're pulling it out and they're dumping it on the street. Where does it go from there? It goes down the curbon gutter and it ends up in your local regional ponds saturating the soils. So, the soils are continually saturated and the soils aren't ready to receive storm water when they come. It's there's an amount of of seepage, if you will, that is consumed in the continual discharge of these sump pumps. And now I understand through Justin and Tom that you've recently passed some ordinances that further outlaw basement. Thank you. Like this this this is this is why that needed to be done. Um what it is is it's it's not the water that's being pulled out of the ground. It's going right down to the the basins and going right back in the earth. It's not a depletion of your water resources. So, please don't take it that way. It's but what it is is consuming your water storage capabilities during storm water events and it becomes a nightmare for the ones that are operating in the winter for uh snow removal and safe conditions on the road when they get discharged in the curb and gutter. I I just have to break this up briefly. Can we lease that water to the Great Salt Lake Commission, please? All right, go ahead. Move on.

»I just realized I'm going longwinded. Okay. Um I'm going to go quicker. I apologize. Uh re So going into some Now that we kind of we've looked at the system, we understand what's going on. We understand where the flows are. We understand which ponds are overflowing, which ones aren't, which ones uh need help, which ones don't. There's two different type of solutions. One of them is a regional pond and one of them is regional conveyance. Regional pond is what you've been doing. This is your golf course. That pond takes in a large area and people pay into that large area as development occurs. This is a project that is currently going on within Sunrise. This is a 5 milliongalon post-tension concrete tank in Boston on the east coast that this tank is 100% for storm water equalization. When you don't have parks available to you, what you do, you build a giant tank to hold your storm water. This is regionalization of efforts. This is when you take your region, your small ponds and you put them into one spot. It works with large ponds, but if you don't have ponds, you got to go below ground. Regional conveyance, you end up, this is again some Saratoga on uh Saratoga Springs, Redwood Road. They're more of a conveyance type manager of storm water. And what that is is they don't want to detain it. They just want to get it through to get it to larger bodies of water that have the space to get rid of it.

»Great Salt Lake. There you go. Just for you, mayor.

»Uh Arizona is very much a conveyance rather than uh detention.

»So how this all fits together, irrigation systems, your irrigation system relationship is your conveyance out of your city. That's the big relationship between the two. So looking at the irrigation system, we actually uh mapped out the capacity of the various irrigation systems. And as you can imagine, they actually irrigation systems are the reverse of storm water. Storm water gets bigger as you go downstream. Irrigation gets smaller as it goes downstream because people are taking off of it. So just you and then but one thing is is the Hyram Slooh is utilized for irrigation and so you've got some significant capacities here and if I had a a microscope ability I'd show you that these all have CFS flows on them to understand their capacities but you can joyfully read that as you go to bed tonight. Then on top of that we said all right we now know how much the canals can hold. How much are the canal companies utilizing? So looking at their water right and working with the area various irrigation companies presidents and their water masters and understanding how they deliver their system and where they deliver it to we were able to identify where they split off their flow rates. So again same network but now the numbers on these indicate the minimum required flow rate in CFS that the irrigation companies need in each one of these reaches to deliver to their to their constituents. So then the question arrives is all right now we know how much they hold. We know how much the irrigation company needs to move around. That leaves the difference available for us to put storm water in. So we mapped where we were already putting each one of these red dots is where your storm water system injects into the irrigation system. And each red dot has a value of CFS of how much that pond is discharging into the irrigation system. And then we map it all the way out. And so it ends up getting about 300 cfs discharging out of Hyram Slooh that is generated and captured by the storm water system. Please keep in mind something that's very very very important. This is modeling a 25-year storm event.

»Okay?

»This isn't your average day spring swell. This is once every 25 years or 4% chance in a year that you're going to see this storm. This isn't a storm that just brushes you by. This is one that you're you're worried your basement's flooded. You're worried about your shingles falling apart. This is not a typ This is not your let's go play in the rain type storm.

»This is the map comparing those three scenarios. Taking the capacity of your canal system, saying, "All right, what happens if a storm comes during irrigation season, which early spring or late fall it will happen." So you got irrigation water in the canals. Now you have storm water on top of that. Now what is our capacity? Each one of these red lines is over capacity. Now, mind you, part of you, at least part of me is like, well, I haven't seen the streets flood in these categories. Well, when the storm water system backs up or the irrigation system backs up, it utilizes the emergency overflow system, which is your roads. When you have standing water on your roads flowing, that is when your irrigation system and your storm water system is inundated. It's full. So, it's got to flow somewhere. That's what the roads actually are supposed to do. This Tom wanted me to make sure that sometimes I I speak too uh formally in terms of flow rates. This is an 8 in pipe. It's flowing about 2 cfs or 900 gallons a minute. It's a good chunk of water. Go ahead and click. This is a table identifying five of the areas of the canal system that are most in the red during a storm event on top of an irrigation event. And you can see that the remaining capacity in the canal between 1200 west and 1300 west along 3450 south. It's short 39 cfs. And that's what 2 cfs looks like.

»What's the diameter of the pipe?

»That's an 8 inch diameter.

»Thank you. Oh, it says right there. Sorry.

»Hey, so that that for me it was like we're 39 cfs short. And just thinking of how much water that is. I'm like that's that's a huge amount of water. Uh Cameron was actually the one and Tom and I will say Justin too, they pointed out like Steve this is happening once every 25 years. What are we typically seeing? What is going on on the average basis? Now the average basis and we call this the 80th percentile storm and this is a very common term for developers. This is what they have to design to in a lot of pieces of their storm water. If you want to think about it 20% of storms are bigger than this and 80% are smaller. That same corridor that was 35 39 CFS short now has 2 CFS in surplus. 80% of the storms it's great. 90% of the storms actually it's great. It's just that top 10% that it over tops and when it does it utilizes the emergency overflows of the roads. So I don't want you to see some of these figures and really panic when you see the comparison of the irrigation versus the city's impact. Yes, the city is reliant on getting your overflow out of the city because of the irrigation. However, on the average day event, you are not emergency reliant on them. It's those big storm events that you're reliant on getting that water out of the city. It's your 25 year storm events. It's your 50-year storm events. It's your hundredyear storm events. Now, we get into the the capital improvement projects. Um this area some 11, sorry, 13 identified projects that will help with some of your primary congested areas. This area is looking at how do we want to manage storm water in your southern annexation area as development occurs. We looked again going on that regionalization of storage or regionalization of conveyance. If you can think back to your soil types as well as the depth of water, depth of water is very shallow here, which means you can't dig a pond very easily without creating a pool. Also on if you did create a pool or pond, it would take forever to drain. Looking at that and uh we also did look at some heavy cost evaluations of doing regionalization in this area. It was just very very very expensive. So uh what we're thinking and proposing is that the southern area be taken care of in terms of storm water as development occurs and it will occur in its unique fashion. But these corridors are master planned into the developments that they have to make sure not detain the volume but allow it to convey through their development to get to the Hyram Slooh to discharge. This goes away from your regionalization of ponds. Yes, Tom.

»So for clarification though, this is reliant on the development building their local ponds. Yes.

»And then these are sized for a controlled discharge through a control device, an orphice plate or smaller pipe. So

»yes, that is a excellent point. So your typical 15 lot subdivision, usually a half or one lot is utilized in some sort of detention pond. That is that still needs to maintain. That still is a highly recommended practice.

»This is to get away from your large golf disc golf course complexes of detention capability.

»And and just one more thing to point out that blue line that's running through that's the Hyram Slooh. So we were able to cut this area in half almost and have the conveyance basically start over on the west side of the slooh and then we we can have the smaller pipe go into the larger pipes as it continued west there. So

»yep and there are three points in which there are already culverts going underneath the highway that we plan on utilizing for those primary discharges out of Nibbi city. So when it comes down to it is we have 13 capital improvement projects. Um a couple of them need to be done immediately or right away. You could see up here we kind of gave them a factor of magnitude versus urgency. And you add those two numbers together to get your importance factor. Magnitude is how many how much of the area of the city will it benefit. Urgency is how much how is it needed right now. What this comes down to is we also looked at these and breaking them up into all right how much of these project is preparing for future development or how much of it is taking care of existing problems and needs. So breaking it up into an impact fee type consideration or user rate. So again 13 projects with a total cost estimate of 3.1 million and just to let you know going with a regionalization effort was over $8 million of infrastructure. So then we look at the trunk lines. We sized gave them sizing and looked at them and say all right well there's a base level that the developers need to install and then there's added capacity above that that the city needs to provide. What does that look like? And so we went on the next one. So here we actually looked at there's a minimum pipe size that developers have to put in. So if the pipe size was over that then we looked at that cost difference and said all right that is the impact fee because the developer should be putting in his minimum requirements as he should but the extra capacity to move the city's master planned events is an impact item. So just the difference there. So what that does is yes it's 2 million $24 million worth of pipe 20 million of that is developerdriven provided pipe. The city is only having that 3.9 in impact fees. So it's a way to properly shift financial burdens where they need to go. This boils down to looking at your growth in user rates looking at uh how they impact how they grow. Looking at your user rates, this is an interesting thing just because uh culinary water and that kind of thing, you rate it off of how many gallons they're using. This is often referred to as uh how much square footage is impervious. So, the typical home or typical lot usually has about 3,000 ft impervious area. That's what we consider one base unit of storm water impact is 3,000 square feet. your typical commercial actually had about 26,000 square ft of of imperous area. So they they look like eight residential homes of impact. And so what we're proposing for in terms of a monthly bill rate, we are proposing that we have a steady increase of $1 increase up until you have about a $14 user rate. again upstepping $1 in a year and stopping at $14. This will we've projected out this will fund the projects that you need to complete to manage your storm water.

»Yes,

»just a point of clarification, adoption of this storm water master plan does not adopt this user aid. This is just a suggested recommendation based on operations, maintenance costs and capital projects. So, okay. Thank you Tom. That's a very part. So impact fee analysis very similar looking at the the projects that have impact eligible eligibility or that they're benefiting development. Also looking at the trunk lines that would be needed in the next uh 5 to 10year window. We get to a impact fee of $1,225. And again, if it is a commercial, we we recommend that you look at how much hardscape that they are planning on putting their site and prorating that according to 3,000 square ft for a residential at a rate of 1,225. So the typical commercial has a factor of 8.1 or 8.75. A typical institutional has a factor of 18. And a commercial typical industrial has a factor of 24. just these heavier uses, they just cover more ground with impervious area. They impact the storm water more. And so that is what we're recommending in terms of of the finances of it. And I went double the time. I apologize. Uh let's ask Steve questions. This is on our agenda tonight uh for first reading. Um we're talking about engineering. However, we're not going to talk about policy, especially as you guys pointed out.

»Yes.

»Changes in policy. That would be financial, either a impact fee or user fee. Um, but I Yeah, we'll we'll take it as you want. If you have questions for Steve, let's start there. And will you hang around a little bit longer than

»Yes. No.

»Thanks.

»Go ahead, Erin.

»Question, but I think it's probably more for the other Steve. Um on page 40, well at the end of the um is this right? Yeah. Page 40, it's talking about maintenance and miscellaneous improvements and and um there's all these suggested improvements that we can do. So like pavement chips, seal unimproved roads, reshape existing roads, install curb and gutter soils, complete regular street sweeping, complete regular facility cleaning, ensure proper gray orientation. So things like this. Um, but I'm wondering like do we already have maintenance plans in place for some of these like the street sweeping, the facility cleaning? So I know these are suggested, but I was going to say I think we already have a lot of these plans in place, don't we? Okay, that's what Yeah. maintenance programs, current system maps, especially with that new um

»with the new programs we have. I thought we had a lot of that kind of taken care of already.

»Okay, that's all.

»And you do. Yeah. It's just a reminder that those are critical to maintain.

»Got it. Okay.

»Other questions?

»Oh, I don't know. This these aren't engineering related, nor are they policy budget either. Is that a Can I ask that? Okay. I'm just curious cuz I'm I'm I'm learning.

»Um I'm curious about only having an agreement with one of the three and what are get like what's the worst case scenario if we don't get the other two? What does that even mean in the big picture? Like essentially it's I know obviously they have their own maintenance ideas on right keeping the infrastructure as they need to do that but obviously we're impacting them if we're contributing to our storm water to their infrastructure right

»and so I was just curious what that means in the big picture of like what what do we need to do to get an agreement and if we don't what's the worst case scenario

»big thing big picture about it is your city manager is actually already completely gung-ho about doing this. And so he's been a huge advocate to revamping and renewing the Nibbly Blacksmith fork agreement to make sure that both parties are following it cleanly. There was some dis there was some contention over that and I will say that Justin has spearheaded that effort as well as um working with the other irrigation companies. I would say that college is very aware of it and has a understanding of the needs but again Justin is actually wanting to move forward and establish an agreement with them and speaking with their irrigation president he wants to as well a formalization of that. Um presently there hasn't been any issues with that. the primary area of conflict has has has been with the Nibl Blacksmith Fork, but at the same time over the past couple years, your city staff has made leaps and bounds in improving with that relationship. Nibble City is not going anywhere. The canals aren't going to magically get up and walk away

»and your city staff has taken that to heart to become working neighbors with them. And so yes, it's critical to it, but in terms of the risk to Nibbli City presented right now, I don't believe it is an immediate risk or uh liability concern. It is something that you should and are already in the process of addressing, but it's I I would honestly say that your your city manager and staff is actually very aware of it.

»Tom, go ahead.

»I'm sorry. I didn't mean to prolong this, but to your point, having agreements is great and I think we're mo moving toward that, but there's prescriptive rights as well. So, historically as a as an undeveloped land, it would rain on it would sheet flow to a to a canal. So, there there's this balance of what's what they have to accept as a canal company, these historic flows, and then how we can design it to main make sure that we're not increasing the flows.

»Yeah. Okay. So that makes sense. And we we all work together. All three of the companies that that are in Nibbi, we have really good relationships. When I got here originally, it was pretty adversarial with one of them, but um with Justin being on and his efforts there, it's really come together. So

»great.

»So it I think these agreements end up costing money, right? not only to write them, but our maintenance agreement with the Blacksmith Fork Irrigation, Nimbi Blacksmith Fork Irrigation Canal Company, um, Nibi City understands its obligation to help maintain these conveyances that might need to carry storm water away.

»And I think we're in gross need of updating the number that's in that agreement. I think it's currently 3,00

»3500

»35. Thank you. which was which is a bargain for Nibbli City but is a

»a need for reevaluation.

»And I I'll also say Nibbly City was in a multi multi-year lawsuit with the Blacksmith Fork Nimble Irrigation Company over what over an agreement that didn't exist. And in fact, the lawsuit went away. We we were the defendant. Uh the lawsuit went away when we got the current agreement in place. So that was a great stride. it was probably 12 13 years ago, right? But that's the agreement we're operating on and then we don't have agreements with these other companies. So, um I think we need to we need to we need to pay our fair share and I'm sure the council will recognize that too. Now, we're also a major shareholder in a couple of these companies, certainly the Nibbly Blacksmith Fork, and we pay an assessment every year

»uh for water that is stays in the ditch. So, there's there's negotiation there. And this is a chance, you guys already know this, I'm going to use this opportunity to make a disclosure that Justin Man, our city manager, is also a member of the Niboo Blacksmith Fort Canal Company. And I I don't see that there's a conflict there. Justin, I think you do a great job. And Steve, you're a you're a contract employee of the Nibbly Blacksmith Fork Canal Company, too. So, as long as I'm making disclosures, are there any others I need to make?

»Just for the council's information, that is actually very common. So, the city manager for Providence sits on the board of one of their irrigation companies or there uh the city engineer for Smithfield sits on the board of Cash Highline Water Association. It is a common practice and so it's not atypical and is often beneficiary of relationships.

»It was a little bit of drama to pull it off but it's been

»I won't say that it wasn't interesting.

»Yeah,

»but it is not atypical.

»We don't have to relitigate any of that but okay. So I just add to your comment.

»Yeah, please. Yeah, that's great. If I may ask one more and I'll be done.

»Please. Um I was just looking at the numbers of the the ratio of the private detention ponds versus what we own. Seems like obviously there's quite a few of them. Obviously we behold them to a standard in the initial design right in development of these ponds. But what do we do to ensure that they still function? I mean do do we have any jurisdiction to just check in and you know what I mean because obviously they contribute to our whole plan.

»Um anyways so go ahead.

»Let's all speak to that Stephen. So with new development, anytimes there's there's a private stormwater pond, we mandate a stormwater agreement,

»and that agreement is attached to the property. It requires a an annual inspection by the property owner, whether it be an HOA or in some cases it might be on a a person's lot and and uh it's a yearly inspection that they would submit to the city and then every five years it allows the city to go in and do an inspection. This all is in line with state state and state requirements.

»I didn't know. So I just thought

»Great question.

»That's it for me. Thank you.

»Thanks.

»Others Garrett, please.

»So you're talking about storm water and you know we've been talking about our general plan and as we're working on that. So based on storm water and stuff, do you have a a proposal of the type of housing that would benefit us with storm water management in these annexation areas?

»That's a that's a loaded question there.

»I know

»don't think that there is a beneficial type to be honest.

»Okay.

»It's a more of recognizing what the land use is going to result in. Right?

»If you go with a higher density, if you go with uh elements that require larger areas of imperous area of either rooftop or parking lot, be aware that it's going to need a larger detention facility. It would be my recommendation that these detention facilities be open to atmosphere and not buried below ground. I think there's huge benefits to that. Um but with going with more loose density or keeping it more agricultural then your storm water you don't have to actively control or actively progressively maintain because agriculture takes care of itself in terms of storm water. But that also means that no new homes or no new commercial developments. And so it really comes down to just understanding what it is, the identity of Nibi City. What is it that you want? And from everything that I've worked with, it seems like everyone wants a a hybrid of that. And so ordinances that look after open space, I think, are very critical for storm water. Ordinances that help with trail utilization and agreements between irrigation companies to better utilize those routes. I I totally understand the the pain with irrigation companies and trails on their on their corridors. At the same time, it's one of the perfect solutions. It really is. You maintain that open space and finding that agreement, that place that they can work together is fantastic. But that would be my thoughts is it's to really just keep in mind of as you increase density, as you increase that heartscape, be aware that the the storm water impacts are going to be greater and they need to be accounted for. Whereas, if you allow for more open space and you have uh code that helps direct open space, that open space can be utilized to help mitigate that storm water impact. Yeah, I'm I'm gonna try to get us to separate the variables on this because I don't think we can use the thread or benefit, however you want to look at it, of storm water as how we plan for our city in terms of land use. I think what we have to do and it's our responsibility and it's our engineers and it's our consultants responsibility to make sure that we are uh making developers pay for their mitigating impact right and so Steve showed us a chart that said this type of development is this sort of multiplier and this type of development is this sort of multiplier so on and so forth even with different zoning densities. So yes, those are the engineering numbers that need to be solved.

»But I don't I mean unless we somehow exceed the capability of engineering and engineers are very innovative fellows and some of them are even women by the way. Uh they're very innovative about solving physics problems. And I don't I I I suspect a solution to a physics pro or lack of a solution to a physics problem will tell us what type of housing we should be putting in. Instead, we should be we should be making sure that the development uh is is covering a mitigated impact. Is that fair?

»That's well said.

»Okay. So Garrett on that note the conveyance analysis that they done for the impact fees and the larger pipes in that annexation area that is based on that that could meet any and every one of the any any and every land use that we have.

»Okay.

»So it's based on a 02 CFS per acre discharge. So it me as the city engineer has to make sure that every design does not allow more than 0.2 two CFS per eight years or so.

»Okay. Thank you. Another question I had for Steve. So, in this report, it had like different things we need to update and maintain. One had she had pictures of like a covert that had the black barrels in it or something like that.

»That was the

»And I I was just curious, is that to mitigate like pets and people from getting into the cover? And if we remove them, do we need to add grates or do some of these other updates or I mean I was just curious about that cuz those pictures I'm like okay I'm curious. Yeah. Was that is that to mitigate something like pets and people trying to get in the culvert or

»Oh, okay.

»Might be snakes in there, right, Steve?

»Sure. Is that is that an underground?

»It was It was thoroughly buried. It's on the west side of the highway. Uh we only found it because we were mapping some of the actual flow lines and had to get down there. And when we got down there, we looked down the culvert and saw it and we notified Steve of it and his crew had no idea it was there. And no one had any idea that this

»blockage was there. It's inside the UT responsibilities of maintenance. It's

»right.

»And we're like, well, this affects us, doesn't it? And we're all like, yeah. So, it was one of those things that you just find and you all look at each other and say the world is a mysterious place and okay, what are we gonna do about it?

»So, okay,

»please don't take that as any way of I mean again your public works they do every inch of it.

»We know they're great. I'm just wondering if there's other things we needed to mitigate or add like cost for grates or different things. So

»our best guess is that agricultural usage had put it there to help build up head previously so that they could push it out of it and flood a field.

»That's the only thing in my mind that is somewhat uh useful for the blockade.

»So I was commuting a similar note. I was commuting back and forth to Campbell Scientific when Costco was being constructed, the the world's best noticer chicken, right?

»And hot dog bills.

»And uh they have a belowgrade um storm water detention at Costco. And so the whole parking lot seemed like the whole parking lot is lined with these half tubes.

»I saw that.

»Right. And that's that's a detention pond. A pond. Subterranean.

»Subterranean detention facility. Yep.

»And it was crazy to watch him build that. It was even more fun to watch him throw gravel at it.

»Yes.

»Because they have all these half pipes laid out and they can't drive a dump truck over them to disperse gravel. So they had this conveyor belt that

»they got a rock chucker

»would would throw it 50 feet

»and they would they would steer it

»and not

»and those are extremely effective. The the reason I don't particularly like them is my personal view this is totally a personal thing please take it that way is it just you don't have that visual inspection of what's in it.

»Yeah.

»But they they work extremely well. The problem with Nibbi City is you have such high groundwater. Right. So to actually get that to a depth that is effective

»there's obviously no evaporation from those and all the all se it's all

»trans I just had one one last question then I'll be quiet but so in this study and stuff will any of this update that GIS layer you know that we have for the groundwater did this discover any different changes or ch you know uh modifications to that that will now reflect on the GIS or did it not change that at all?

»No, that's a great question. The maps that they used to develop to that showed the soil profiles and and the the nibbly lom or whatever all those different soils that actually ties right into the groundwater map. It's the same organization that developed these things.

»Okay,

»all this is available on NRCS websites and that that's how we generated that water table map. Okay.

»I will say all of the collected data of the irrigation companies and all of that kind of stuff will be turned over to Nibbly City for your uh for your your knowledge base.

»Thank you.

»Anything else? Couple of quick comments for me, Steve, if I may and questions. Um uh one you mentioned LIS, low impact designs on on storm water. I don't we don't need to legislate that here tonight. Um, it's kind of a new thing for us, Tom. I think you know, you can help us decide moving forward if and with with Steve if he wants to commits whether that's a good plan or a bad plan. You you mentioned pluses and minuses. I just that it's a relatively new thing for us. We ought to we got to keep that in mind as we contemplate new development, whether low impact design is a is a good way to go. Um, I want to say one comment about the blacksmith fork. You're right. She's incredibly uh forgiving. There it is. Thank you for sheet flow uh because it's a ditch. Um however, it causes us trouble during runoff. And so

»there is that

»nothing. Yeah. So nothing is either all good or all bad, including the blacksmith fork river. And

»it does have its pros and cons in that,

»right? and and and I assume I mean it makes sense since we talk about 100redyear 25 year events for storm water those are storm events and in fact runoff is not a storm water issue it's uh I mean those storms happened most winters during the last three or four months okay all right so

»um mentioned that uh I and that leads right to you the the hyum slooh is an important part of this plan. Do we run out of capacity on the Hyram Slooh at some point?

»Run out of crossings. There's a couple places where the Hyram Slooh has been piped for a road crossing. Okay.

»And those have been identified in your capital improvement project of a couple of those crossings that should be upsized.

»The Slooh itself,

»it's surprisingly deep in some areas

»um and is effective to transfer what it needs to historically. It's just where we have influenced it with covert that we ricted it.

»We've undersized some coverts in the past of installation. So,

»all right. And then this borders on um a policy discussion. We won't go into it, I don't think, too far. Um we we currently don't have a storm water impact fee.

»So, this would be a new

»This is my recommendation of city.

»Yes. and and maybe the council will think about and Steve if you want to weigh in on it. I mean that uh let's see these are my pen quit working so they're trends there's TLD or something in there.

»Yes. So you have the trunk line

»trunk line

»and those impacts and we actually did an evaluation if you actually scrolled down to the impact fee page of my presentation. Sorry. Um, we actually looked at saying, "All right, if we did an impact fee just for the capital improvement projects within the city's existing elements."

»Yeah.

»What would that look like,

»right?

»What's an impact fee of just looking at the trunk line impacts?

»Yeah.

»And what is it combined?

»Yeah.

»So, we actually looked at those three items and they are in in the in the

»in the report.

»Okay. And so I'm I'm wondering I mean uh we need to increase our monthly fee to take care of problems that exist so that um to take care of the problems that exist. Now impact fees need to be used for the impact of new development.

»Yes.

»And and because it's a new or could be a new impact fee. I start thinking about it and you know we have an impact fee for parks. I kind of get that even if I don't live next to a park, I probably use Nibbi City Parks and if I build a house in Nibbi, I probably ought to pay a park impact fee. Same for roads, right? Same for culinary water because we have to go find new water sources and develop new water sources. I have an impact building a new house. I'm wondering about an alternative. We don't have to go deeply into it, but I'm wondering about a regional assessment. So, it's a multi-project problem. I understand that. So, we can't make one developer pay for it all. But on the other hand, um if and I'm not prodevelopment in the north of town versus the south of town. I'm just trying to understand, you know, who's the benefactor and who's the payer. And so, I'm wondering about a a regional assessment, a special assessment in that part of town. And Justin, maybe you have the answer.

»That's how we did the north part of town. There was it's not an official impact fee, but there was a a

»to contribute to regional

»ponding the disc golf pond

»ponds had a giant area mapped out and if development happened in that area, they were to pay a fee

»that all it's an old agreement. Um, yeah, there's there's not much left area-wise that would go into that. And so the likely if we did do an impact fee, we'd probably do away with that old arrangement. And so there's there's definitely some details there,

»but we might combine those two.

»Yeah. I mean, it it

»into a citywide impact fee.

»Correct. Regional impact fees are possible. They get messy and difficult, but you can do them. I don't want to go to court because someone in the north says you're making me pay an impact fee to build something in the north and what you're doing

»is bene fact benefiting the projects in the south.

»The biggest thought and we we discussed this pretty heavily with Tom and Justin as we were going about this impact fee proposal. Um, one thing then is it does become a a legal responsibility of Nibi City to make sure impact fee that is gained from a specific area is utilized in that specific area.

»And so,

»okay.

»And then it becomes it just becomes a legal responsibility of NIB to then show that documentation that impact fee gained from the regional impact fee is used for the projects in that region.

»Okay. And so by doing a citywide, it makes it easier for the city to utilize the budget on the need now, not what the need was in.

»So does this report give us the ammunition we need to enact that impact fee? Because I'm I'm not sure that we've identified cap uh what we would do with impact fees in the north, right? Or do we do we need additional work to say, "Yeah, we can justify a $1,400 impact fee on residential."

»Not 14, but 12.

»12.

»That's the limit.

»I'm a

»You could you could accept something less.

»I'm a order of magnitude guy.

»There is the the the impact fee code is included as an appendex as well as my certification that's required for that impact fee is also a signed document within the doc within the master plan. So if you went with these capital improvement projects then yes it does have the proper documentation for you to move forward through that process according to Utah code.

»Okay.

»All depending on if those projects are appropriate for Snibly cities and your right

»on your side.

»Okay. Thank you. I appreciate that. Nathan, do you have something?

»Yeah, I think um you and Garrett brought up a lot of things that I was going to in different ways. Um, but when I look at this, um, I always like to have our our submaster plans of the general plan like this one, um, help inform policy decisions, right? And and this has done that in in a financial way and in a project based way, but Garrett kind of alluded to this. Is there not necessarily land use, but is there um other policy decisions that um may not have been in the part of the scope of this, but are are something that we can find that help for? So, for example, right um you had you heard citizens come today and say, "Hey, why are you walking around policing who parks on their sidewalk?" But in reality, from what I understand, we should be like looking at after a storm, we we should be checking our our ponds and things like that. Or if someone is blocking with black barrels a culvert that we care about. Is is there ordinances and and and and policies, you know, whether we pipe canals or don't pipe canals um that this can inform that that we didn't do or or it wasn't part of the scope? I would wager actually no because actually one thing that we were actually in the midst of with Steve's group is that he was actually doing his MS4 permits to the state and part of that permitting is checking on certain elements and discharge and the quality and maintaining the quality of the ponds. Again, I know the black barrels are an interesting thing, but I I really do want to say that Steve's group is taking and he they do check and they send in those annual reports for their MS4 permit, which is their maintenance and their repair and their care of the storm water facility. They have to do certain inspections on the discharge. They've got to do certain inspections on the if debris is collecting and stuff of that nature to make sure that they're in good working order. And so I'd say that a piece of what you're discussing potentially is already underway and has good records of nibbly taken care of.

»A similar example is is the ordinance we did to say, "Hey, if you're going to put in a basement, there's there's some restrictions here in nibbly now." Right.

»I cannot thank you enough.

»Yeah.

»Like pride of my time.

»That I I I'm not a good expert. I'm not in that regard. And so I'd really defer to it's actually Tom and Justin if there was a specific element that should be looked at to help derive code or some of that nature to help guide it.

»Okay, that's good. Similar to that is uh from your perspective uh at Sunrise etc. Are there state actions that uh we should be considered or should be looking out for uh that that uh may impact the the studies and things that were done here?

»I'd say the biggest one is there's currently a bill on the ground that would require certain uh user fees to increase to significant amounts if you are planning on seeking state funding on any type of water infrastructure project. Um, the results of that bill could be uh drastic for any community in Cash Valley and I'd highly recommend you look at that. I can't remember the number for the life of me. I apologize. It's like House Bill 411, something of that nature. 501. That's that's a hot topic right now specifically in that area of ability to be autonomous versus getting state funding to maintain their water utility infrastructures and that would include storm water.

»Yeah, it seems to be getting better. The good news is seems to be getting better. Justin, I know you've been involved with it. When it goes away completely, it'll be great.

»So, Uh just a final question. You know the this this the um sorry analysis gave us 94 potential projects I think it was and we whittleled it down to 13 using staff kind of uh insight and and and um

»also cascading impacts. We solved this these three projects go away

»type stuff as well.

»I didn't is was there a list of all 94 in there? I

»I think we did include it in the appendix.

»Okay.

»I didn't get that far. So that

»Thank you.

»The appendix is massive. It has reports upon reports coming out of the modeling sheets and stuff of that nature.

»Yeah.

»But

»I I appreciate it. I think this is a a great great step and updating a lot of what we're doing. So, thank you.

»Yeah. Other other questions. Um we we can turn this into the council consideration if you'd like. I see head nods. Let's

»I've got I got one more piece of information to offer. There's been talk about the 100red-year storm design, etc., etc. So,

»um in 2003 is when the MS4, so what an MS4 is a municipal separate storm sewer system. Um there there's a phase two that required every community that had 10,000 population or more to develop a storm water management plan and apply. There's six minimum control measures. One of the primary ones is construction site management. You know, there there's a whole bunch of other ones, but in Nibbi is an an MS4 because of their location proximity to Logan being an MS4. So, we got drug into that in 2003. That's when these rules first came out. 2008, there was a Cache Valley storm water design standard. And this storm water design standard chose the 100-year storm or the 1% likelihood storm to design development to. So this has been it was developed by an engineer Lance Hower and a a coalition of of municipal MS4s and it was enacted and adopted by most of the communities in Cash Valley. That's since been updated. I believe it was updated in 2017. Um there's been some some state changes in the last three or four years. So there's going to be another update coming up. But that that 100red-year storm I I call it the flood event. Hopefully we never see it, but we're seeing it more often than

»we have% chance of seeing.

»Right. So, so what that does is just controls and minimizes the risk of flooding by containing everything within the local of the project itself and then discharging at a controlled rate. So, it's not a magic number that someone made up. This has been in use for close to 20 years.

»And that 100-year event is an accumulation for what period of time.

»So, there's there's two storm events. It's a 24hour storm event.

»Yeah. or a 48 hour storm event. So, and the difference in those two is the 24-h hour storm event is 3.02 inches total throughout that 24 hour period. And then the 48 hour storm event is 3 48. It's it's not it's not much more

»and and and the way it's dispersed is a little bit different model. in this design standard that's cash valleywide. If you design a detention pond, so there's two sorts of storm water ponds we're talking about. There's a detention pond which will collect the water in excess of that minimum flow or that maximum flow that's that it's discharging at and it'll back it up in this pond, but it's releasing at that that design flow.

»The a retention pond will collect that into the storm into this pond and it won't escape. It'll infiltrate, it'll evaporate, or you can reuse. I've only seen two that reuse in my life.

»I saw Nathan on a kayak in his neighborhood. That's That's another

»Has anyone ever been to to Sportsman Warehouse in a big storm event?

»No.

»You haven't been there? in in Logan there there's also before they tore the the mall down but um storm the sportsman warehouse they actually designed their their parking lot as their detention area and so every time you get a big storm event they they people think that it's failing but in actuality it was designed to flood the parking lot sometimes you'll see duck decoys out floating around the the workers out there throw things out there but anyway there there's a bunch of ways to skin a cat and and like the mayor said there engineers, men and women in his case are very ingenious and they come up with all kinds of things.

»They can solve a lot of water problems. I think civil engineers really like working with water. Doesn't matter how clean it is.

»I think USU really has a huge focus on water of all sorts, but yes.

»All right, council. What do you want to do? Thank you, Steve. Good job. Great report. Good efforts. You You earned your keep on that one. Appreciate it.

»Well, it was it's been a good road

»and and and thanks to staff as well.

»Make a motion, Larry, to approve resolution 266 for first reading.

»Okay, we have a motion from Nick and a second from Nathan to approve adoption of the storm water master plan for first reading. Discussion. I might ask uh what what can staff andor Steve do between first reading and second reading? What what sort of information would you like to

»I had a few questions just um things on like odd dates in the document. Um like starting on page two it says storm water master plan 2024 all the way down through the document. So maybe just some cleanup things on

»just making sure the dates reflect 2025 basically I think even on or 26 now. Yeah. So all of the dates obviously and then there was another one.

»It should be classified as the storm water master plan 2025.

»Oh it should be

»that is the official

»date in my mind unless

»okay

»and there was another one I can I wrote a bunch of notes down so I don't have to

»describe them all here or I can there was just a couple more dates that are just like just to coalign with today.

»Absolutely.

»Or for 2025. Nothing not a big deal. I just noticed them.

»Provide them to who wants it Steve or Tom? Which one? I could take them or either way.

»Yeah.

»To Tom or Justin, I guess, if that's okay.

»So, Stephen, can I just request that you scrub that and update everything?

»Okay.

»All the dates.

»Yeah.

»So, I think

»I got a bit of the history of Yes, I know.

»It's been a long

»Justin I asked Justin a lot of questions. He's like, "Yeah, we've been doing this a while." So, that's probably why. So,

»thanks for pointing that out. I didn't catch that. I think I've seen it one too many times.

»That's all I had honestly for me, but

»Okay. Anything else that staff can work on between now and next? Okay, it's fine. It's a big It's a big uh It's a big swallow.

»Yeah.

»Perfect.

»Interesting stuff. Thank you.

»All right. Any opposition to voting? Seeing none, those in favor of adopting for first reading, please say I.

»I.

»Any opposed? Okay. Passes. Thanks. Um, you can work it out with Tom. I'm not sure. You have to come back for second reading, but it's up to you guys to discretion.

»Thank you.

»Have we already paid the bill?

»All right. Um, yes. Uh, if there's if there's no objection, let's take a brief break. um 10 minutes. And before we do that, Norm Norm, thanks so much for coming. Three minute break.

»Three.

»Three five.

»Back here at 8:30. Let's say that. Okay. And if we're early, Norm, thanks for coming out. It's great to see you. And uh we're not going to give you the microphone, but we do appreciate your service.

»Okay, we'll we'll take a recess. Thanks.

»I just started every time you open your mouth and cross the question like that was basically the same question. rush every time I feel like It was so funny. No drama, no controversy. and brown water is hot.

»And they said, "Isn't that our isn't that our discretion?" I said, "Yeah, except that creates problems for sauce."

»And I said, "And the problem is that your fault

»you're going to eventually come back and say, why did you let me build It burned up and backed up all

»that's not my fault. So you're going to ask

»yeah city and so I told him I said get past that because that is the best policy. Now I'm not saying you can't use basement to meet these yet people have done it. You just have to basically build up some dirt around it so it doesn't look like you have a to I don't you know you should be thinking that's

»this is the best thing

»anytime someone gets

»I'll send you some pictures

»thing runs all year long there's one in my neighborhood and there's one of them something else

»but it is amazing it is amazing and then those they call Lake this morning.

»Um I engaged online social media discussions people tell me about all these different things. I'm like what's being said? I don't know anything. So I honestly feel like just like to go there and get it out and have to come in and be like, "Yeah, we all feel this way." But then they show up and say, "We're not being heard." Say, "Oh, it's not. How do you address problems?"

»Yeah.

»So, I get on there. That's my

»That's the only time I engage in addresses where we don't do it.

»I'll stay off.

»Don't do it. Once I retire,

»one of you needs to pick up the mantle. But

»never been a big guy. All the studies they show and stuff like one, nobody's reason to really appreciate it. What's wrong?

»How much time are we? She's saying she never got a warning because it was eight months last year and should we change something? I don't know what to say. Great to hear from you, Wendy. Hope you're doing well. But then she was like,

»after you sent your message back to her, she wrote back to me just today and was like, "Oh, thanks for the street lights again. We see those all the time."

»I just really respect people.

»I really do. And it's very very easy to be a critic.

»Much harder Are you still in your calling?

»Have you been written off?

»It's not. No, Nick.

»Garrett. live.

»We are back.

»Okay, back in session, council. Thank you. Uh let's move on to consider discussion into consideration of uh adopting a new general plan. I'm going to turn it.

»Well, there's no there's no presentation. I I had the advantage of throwing some stuff in the in teams which you're welcome to look at. Uh maybe already have if not it doesn't matter. Um and I realize that's an advantage but of course you all have hopefully feel just as empowered to offer suggestions as as as I put in the the team's folder. So I'm going to turn it to council. Erin,

»uh, could we, so should we start with your suggested mission statement alternative?

»I would be happy to think about that. So, let me uh I think if we start modifying something in the plan, it would make a lot of sense just to put it in the form of amendment, vote it up or vote it down if that's okay with you. Um, but before we do an amendment, I can't remember. Is this a continuation of the second reading or is this the first time we've had a second reading?

»Continuation. So, I'm going to say that we have a uh well, we don't have a motion to adopt this for second reading. So, I think that would be appropriate. And then we could talk about amendments up or down if that's okay with you.

»Yeah.

»Okay. Uh, I'll make a motion to adopt the general plan second reading.

»Okay, we have a motion and no second. We can talk all night and talk next time. Okay, a second from from Nathan uh to adopt the draft general plan uh to adopt it for second reading. Okay, let's discuss that motion. You were going to make a motion to amend. Is that correct?

»Okay. What would it be?

»Um Okay. Well, just by way of explanation, I I like what you've written as an alternative on this mission statement. There is um one word I wanted to ask you about though, what you meant by it.

»Sure.

»Yeah. So, you wrote we will efficiently provide services. What do you mean by efficiently?

»Yeah. Great question. That's the ratio of output divided by input.

»Oh goodness. Oh goodness.

»Okay. Yeah, I get that. But what do you mean in the larger sense of pros?

»Great question. So I think there's a whole bunch of stuff we do in providing services that we should be providing an adequate service at a reasonable price. and I kind of rolled that into the word efficiently.

»Okay. Um I don't like that word and I would offer an alternative to that word um pull something from the original the original mission statement or the current mission statement that's in the plan. So I would suggest saying instead we will provide fiscally sound municipal services that newly citizens cannot provide for themselves.

»Is that a motion?

»Yeah. So I would make a motion to

»replace the mission statement with this your suggested mission statement but changing that word that wording right at the first to instead of we will efficiently provide

»to instead we will provide fiscally sound municipal services. Okay. Uh motion from Aaron.

»Second.

»Yeah, it's in the it's in the report, right? A second from Nick. Okay.

»So, that's a motion to amend.

»So, instead of having we will efficiently provide services, I like instead we will provide fiscally what did I say?

»Fiscally sound municipal services, which is a phrase that is in the other. Yeah.

»Okay. And to you, does that imply adequate service at a reasonable cost? Does it say adequate service or is it just fiscally sound?

»Uh, I didn't I don't know that we need that adequate is necessary because if our services are not adequate, I think people will let us know.

»Okay. Do you know if we have adequate fire service or not?

»Uh I think we're undered there,

»right?

»Yeah. But we know that

»in my opinion.

»Yeah.

»Right.

»Um another alternative is just take the adjective out.

»Yeah.

»Um and you don't need my permission.

»Provide services.

»Yeah. That they can't easily provide for themselves. Kind of covers all that, right?

»Yes.

»Is that a substitute motion? No, I'm keeping mine.

»I'm agreeing with you, but I'm keeping mine.

»Have it typed in.

»What? Things are moving all over.

»It's not me. Oh, maybe I am. I'm in the I'm in there. Holy moly. I'll stop typing.

»This is This is called collaboration. I was in there just to read it, not to change it. But now I'm changing it. I don't think we need that either. That's my problem.

»Residents cannot easily. So, I don't think you need that. They maybe I put that in. Maybe not.

»Okay, we'll get there.

»Um, there's another adjective. Well, wait a minute. Yeah, there's another adjective because I started doing adjectives um equitably.

»I'm I'm on a roll with uh

»neutral

»with uh leader leadership from federal government. There's a lot of adjectives those people throw in like clean, beautiful coal. It's not just coal anymore.

»I usually leave the word smithing to Nathan. That's the one that comes up with.

»So I mean creative

»you don't need my permission but equitably is hard to say if if nothing else

»you could could just we will find the balance between or fairly or you know just there's another adjective I threw in that doesn't that purposely doesn't say anything right? I mean, I'm I'm not kidding. That was that's a goal. That's not a that's not a definition. There's no definition of what is equitable. if there was a substitute motion to also get rid of equitably, that would be an order. If there's not, we'll keep talking about this this amendment. Okay, it appears to me we've run out of steam on the amendment. So, anyone opposed to voting on adopting this on the screen for our mission statement? Anyone opposed to voting? Don't see any. So, those in favor, please say I.

»I. Any opposed? Okay. We have an amended draft to consider. Thanks, Eric. And and so the work schedule I laid out you guys can live with or throw away. Um

»I think we talked about trying to take this in bite-sized chunks.

»Yeah.

»So I tried to set a aggressive but not um impossible goal. Saving what might be the two heavy lifts for the end or for next time.

»I didn't have any other questions or points that I wanted to bring up on public input or the the intro. So,

»okay. Yeah, that's a good idea. Let's go through this a section at a time. So, we're on public we're on intro and public input. Anything else on intro and public input? And I need to bring up the plan.

»What's after that?

»Transportation. I think

»transportation. Gosh. Anything on transportation? Erin?

»Yeah. I had a couple couple questions. Let me get to the page. can put pages on. On page 30, there is a table. And I just had a question about this table. um at the bottom of the table

»the last in the general

»line. So this table is talking about traffic circulation Senate Bill 195. So I guess I just didn't really understand this table very well. And specifically the last line is talking about 4,000 South and US891 crossing. So are is this a bill that's passed already and that's funding has already been laid out or maybe Justin you could help explain a little bit like what this table is?

»So SB95 I think it was passed last year the year before but it what it does is mandates that every general plan contains an element or an analysis of barriers that would per that would obstruct a a network of roadways. It would include canals. um we we've interpreted to include the the highway because that is we as we've found out it's it's an obstruction to getting access on there. So that that list kind of demonstrates that and and complies with that SP95.

»Okay, that makes more sense. Thank you. So the the cost estimate is not saying like we need to pay for this. It's just saying in order to overcome this barrier, this is how much it's probably going to cost.

»Okay, I understand. Thank I believe this is in response to canal companies being difficult to work with on crossings and impeding traffic networking.

»And so a bill was ran to kind of highlight the issues. And like a lot of this document is a lot of check boxes to meet things like that.

»That makes sense.

»That the state legislature wants to know.

»Okay.

»Legislature requires this analysis in our plan. Nick

»the list of um yeah sorry

»I'm not if it's retaining or pertaining to this topic go ahead

»it does yeah so the thank you um the projects on the table is that just determined by us or do we discuss that with the state through this bill do they have to meet some qualification I was just cur to expand upon Erin's question about the table because I read it too and I was like interesting where where did this all come from My understanding of SB195 was just you're supposed to identify those and put a cost to how to mitigate them. That that was it. Okay.

»I don't think it obligates us to. It just they just want to have this list and I believe we have to submit this to the the no in our case Metropolitan Planning Organization. So, and I think they're going to collectively address those or I'm not quite sure what the overall intent is. I I apologize. What else?

»Okay, I can I make one more?

»Yep.

»My next one is not a question, just a comment. On page 31, I just really love all of these implementation suggestions. I think that they're really fantastic suggestions for our city, for our roads. So, I just want to say kudos to whomever wrote all these. I think that they're fantastic. the whole page. Um, that's all I had for transportation.

»Levi is not here to blame, so we'll give him the credit.

»Great. Good job, Levi. Are we ready to move to not housing, not land use, uh parks, recreation, and open space?

»Sure.

»Okay.

»Yeah, I've got I've got

»Please do.

»Okay. on page 50. Let me get there also. So in it in here number three we talk about promoting um and utilizing open space subdivisions to incentivize open space preservation with the newly developed subdivisions. Um, so this would be essentially like saying as we go forward with new development, we're going to be promoting this open space subdivision. I I mean, I feel like we've had a lot of conversation within our council lately about about open space subdivisions and whether it's better to have small pockets of open space throughout our neighborhoods or whether it's better to have to put all those pieces of open space together in regional parks or large parks. So, I didn't know if this was something that still reflects what we as a council feel is important to have small pieces of open space everywhere. We wanted to change this verbiage to maybe reflect trying to put all of our open space into larger parks. I just wanted to have a little conversation about this point if anyone has an opinion about it.

»Uh Nick,

»yeah, Erin, I'll ask a question based on your question. um is the context because this is Nibbly City's general plan the meaning are we as a city interested in acquiring these small pockets of open space rather than just saying we like open space whether it's private or public right

»I don't know I'm asking you're right like I'm guessing the context is since this is the city's general plan we're talking about parks wreck and open space it to me I would read that as the city Yeah to which I would agree with your question Yeah.

»Or your sentiment maybe.

»Uh yeah, it seems like in in maybe in also talking with Rod, it's like a lot of these tiny spaces of open space that we have, they're kind of hard to maintain and costly. So, I don't know if that's something that we want to be saying as a city. Yeah, we're all for small open space pockets.

»Well, and we did an amendment for that, right? Because if if you're within a certain within as a half mile of a park, there's a deed in loo,

»right,

»for that now because they re I think we recognize as a city uh like you said that we want to congregate and make usable awesome open space rather than

»little pocket parks that very few people utilize.

»Right. Maybe I'll try to generalize this a little bit. I I think it's important that open space subdivision is lowercase. And in fact, what informs me on that is item three talks about RPUD and it talks about the open space associated with RPUD subdivision. And so I'm not so sure, and maybe it needs to be rewarded, I'm not so sure that item three is talking about a specific ordinance. I think it's talking about a philosophy of open space and and and maybe it needs to be cleared up to make sure that we're not talking about a specific ordinance. Yeah, I think maybe when I read it, that was what I was I was thinking about open space as a specific ordinance.

»Yeah, there's a there's a pattern recognition in there, right? That it's like, well, we're all familiar with that ordinance.

»Um, but why do we put 3A in there then?

»Yeah,

»because that has nothing to do with the ordinance called the open space subdivision ordinance.

»Yeah, you're right.

»Yeah. If because three and 3A kind of don't feel like they they're congruent

»depending on how

»Oh, you define that

»we interpret open space subdivision.

»Mhm.

»You're right.

»So, what if it read I'm thinking promote and utilize

»as open space.

»Open space. Uh how about

»and preservation

»or open space within subdivisions? I don't know. promote and utilize open space and preserv and preservation within submission to incentivize.

»Yeah, it doesn't need to be there, does it?

»Okay, I'm going to call that a motion from Nate to strike open space between utilize and subdivision. And this is a PDF, so we'll have to be clear. will promote

»and utilize subdivisions to incentivize open.

»So, I'll repeat the motion even though I don't have a second. Just

»I'll get a second so we can discuss.

»That's okay. I can repeat it to make it clear. All right. So, we have a motion in a second to amend as follows. Why don't you say it?

»Promote and

»to the microphone, please.

»Yep.

»Promote and utilize subdivision to incentivize open space preservation within newly developed subdivision. Well, you could drop that other one, too. Let me do it again. Promote and utilize subdivision or subdivision concepts that incentivize open space preservation within newly developed subdivisions. How about that?

»Promote and I like it.

»Utilize

»subdivision.

»Subdivision concepts.

»Concepts that.

»Okay. concepts that

»instead of two

»to incentivize open space preservation within newly developed subdivisions.

»Yeah,

»it seems generic enough for a general plan.

»Are we are we clear on we got that written down?

»Yeah. Go ahead, Nate. promote and utilize

»subdivision concepts that incentivize open space preservation within newly developed subdivisions.

»How about development concepts instead of subdivision concept? It's going to

»Okay, I'll leave it. Doesn't have to be perfect. This is This is what happens when we do it from the bench, right?

»Everyone clear on what we're discussing amendment wise? Okay. Anyone want more discussion on that amendment? Hearing none. Those in favor of the amendment promote and utilize subdivision concepts to incentivize open space preservation within newly developed subdivisions. In favor of that, please say I.

»I.

»Any opposed? Cool. Further amended.

»I have another on the same page,

»please.

»On the next column over 7B. So, we're talking about protecting and expanding public facilities and programmed events in Nibi that promote and enhance quality of life. Um, I think one of the things that definitely makes our city feel quote unquote small town feel or helps people feel like really connected to our community in its agricultural sense is Morgan Farm. And even though we don't actively have we've separated Morgan Farm from the city a little bit, I think it's still a pretty active part of our community. So I I would just like to add in So we write um support new programmed events such as heritage days, nature/science education. Can we just I would like to add in Morgan Farm as one of these um things that we support a program that we support within our city.

»So in the list you're adding

»in that list I just want to add in Morgan Farm. Any preference on where in the list?

»I don't care where

»such as heritage days.

»Yeah, it's an example list. Right.

»So, there's a motion for

»Heritage Days.

»Second.

»Second from Nick and stick it in there somewhere.

»Yeah, maybe just right after heritage days such as Heritage Days, Morgan Farm, then continue with the list.

»Okay.

»I just think it's an important part of our city and and part of our heritage. So, I think that should be listed specifically.

»Nathan,

»um, I don't think it matters. Obviously, we're going to capitalize Morgan Farm because it's a proper noun, but are you talking about the actual location or the organization?

»You're talking about the organization, the 501c3.

»It's not its full name.

»Tell me its full name. It's like the Morgan Farm of Nibi or like Nibbly Morgan Farm Corporation or Nibbly Morgan Farm LLC. So I I I I don't think it matters. I was just

»I didn't know how much detail you wanted how granular you wanted to be. I think Morgan Farms

»Morgan Farm lets people know

»capitalized

»more capitalized Morgan Farm. Yeah.

»Further discussion. Anyone opposed to voting on the amendment? Seeing none, those in favor of amendment to include the Morgan farm after Heritage Days, please say I.

»I.

»Okay, cool. Thanks, Aaron.

»And that's all I have for this section.

»Anything else?

»I do.

»Yeah, go ahead.

»Um, page 45 on the map under the call out for Nibi Regional Park. Are there any does does anyone see or foresee any issues with including the rec center as part of the list? Is that

»that's a

»speculative thing?

»Nibbly Regional Park. The first one is indoor recreation center.

»Yeah.

»So wait, what's the question?

»Just do we feel like it belongs?

»Oh,

»since we don't know

»based on

»Yeah. So, I remember we pulled this directly from the parks and wreck master plan.

»Yeah.

»And it's on there.

»Okay.

»And it's part of our plan currently. At one point,

»I guess the plan Yeah, I got it.

»At one point the plan was to have it over here and that shifted to there. So,

»just asking. Yeah,

»it's a good question.

»It's just Sorry if I may continue. Um, just like how we communicate, right? I I appreciate that it's on the plan. A lot of people do. Um I just I hope sometimes I hope it's not interpreted as though action when maybe we can't. Yeah, that's I guess my the root of my question

»and Right. So you think we're you you fear that we might be building an expectation

»or promoting something that we don't know is

»sure

»but I understand Nathan your point as well. Obviously it's on the plan. So

»it's a plan.

»Yeah. Hence the term

»the bestlaid plans of mice and women. I'm just trying to not be gender gender biased.

»That's I just noticed it and I thought I'd ask. So if anyone had any issues with that, I'm not saying it's a no-go for me. I'm just asking. So

»do we put conceptual?

»This whole thing is conceptual.

»Yeah.

»Okay. I'm not asking to remove it. I'm just asking the question. Did that expression come? It must be tying the bell around the cat's neck of M men. The bestlaid plans of m men. That must be the reference.

»The internet to tell us. We can look it up.

»Not to not to derail.

»I thought he was going to go the Mike Tin route and be like, "Everyone has a plan till we get punched in the face.

»Boxing is in the indirect center. Okay. Uh, more on recreation.

»I have a question. Please do. On again page 45 where we're we just at. Do we own does the city own all those light green areas currently? This proposed parks that I just we do own those. Okay.

»Yeah. I apologize. I just saw your text and I failed to answer you.

»You're fine, Justin. And I I was just just making sure

»we do.

»Great. That's great to hear.

»And and we could I mean we it probably wouldn't be a good strategy. We could actually plan on purchasing property even before we purchase it. But that that's why we usually go to close session to talk about the city purchasing property to not increase the price of what we want to buy.

»That's smart. Yeah. Okay. Anything else? Recreation. I think that moves us to public facilities. Nice short section.

»Yeah.

»What page does that start on?

»That's on 53.

»51 is the cover page. Okay. Uh sounds like we could move on. This is this is another uh mandate from the legislature. to deal with water conservation and preservation. So that's that's the next section on page 54. Anything that we talked about?

»I've got a question there. Go

»ahead, please. Um, probably more for staff like the the numbers on page 55 for whatever this DWR or DNR study is. Are these realistic? I mean, I have no context, so I'm just asking the question. But they're asking us to put some numbers down for reduction in water usage, I'm guessing. I don't know if we've reviewed these or I don't even know if maybe I'm I don't need to I don't mean to belabor some numbers but I'm just curious like are these even are these realistic in your point of view or

»It's close. Okay.

»It's a plan, right? Okay.

»It's close.

»Okay. Just asking.

»Well, this looks like a cash county goal, right? Right.

»Well, that cash county set for Nibbly because the numbers say in Nibbi.

»Mhm.

»Yeah. I don't remember the answer to that or if I ever knew the answer. I'm not I'm not sure. Yeah. I'm not either. I know those for they're they're they're realistic.

»Yeah.

»Is the implication because this is uh mand mandated by the state that we have to have a policy plan in place to meet these new

»Yeah. We have a part of the water master plan. There is a water conservation plan.

»Yeah. which we do have on tap to update and then it's yeah I think it's budgeted now but it'll probably either finish up next fiscal or ish so yeah that's part of the water master plan Okay, let's move on. Uh, we to economic development. I think so. Uh, yeah. Well, you had a chance to see it. You don't have to like it whatsoever. I just felt like we dived right into this nuts and bolts financial analysis and and I have conversations with people about well we don't need we don't need stores in Nibi we don't need economic development we don't need places to work in nibbli and so you know I kind of threw in put some words out there that might justify um how economic development is more than just about dollars and cents and I don't even remember what I wrote and I don't want to go back to that document because I'll start changing it and then it'll generate just

»how many adjectives are. So, I I have no no heartburn one way or another of what you do with what I put in the teams.

»Um, I like what you've written here and I So, I would make a motion to add this paragraph that you've written into the general plan

»and is it two paragraphs? It's up from where you are, Justin?

»I think it's just one.

»Oh, yeah. One paragraph. Thank you. Yep. Have a motion. All right, I'm going to second the motion so we can talk about it and you can kill it. I I'm allowed to make an second motion. So, motion from Aaron, second from me to add that paragraph to the beginning of economic development. And if it's if it needs word smithing, it hasn't been reviewed by anyone at all. Um, we're gonna most likely get another crack at this next time. And that doesn't mean you want to add it. It doesn't mean you want to change it. It doesn't mean you want to eliminate it. It's up to you. discussion.

»Go ahead, Garrett. You know, when I think of economic development, I think one of the things that I think about, one of the reasons I I kind of think we should push it is, like you said, to diversify Nimble's tax base. But in my mind, it's also to help, you know, keep property taxes low. And so the whole point of this is to kind of help trade out property tax into another kind of income for the city to function and operate, which is why I think it's so important. I don't know how to say that in an eloquent way uh or if it even needs to be included, but you know, I definitely think for the residents when they read this need to understand that one of the reasons we do this economic development is so that we can keep property taxes low.

»Nathan, I'll give you a suggestion here, Garrett, that just in that first sentence, tell me if you think this is where you're headed. the section on economic development focused on a financial impact specifically as an opportunity to broaden and diversify Newy's tax base. You could say something to the fact of and keep property taxes low or

»Yeah, that's a

»yeah how do you feel about residential property tax the residential

»I'm interested in commercial property tax with economic development.

»Yeah, we should clarify that. Sorry. Um, I think it would be appropriate to make a substitute motion at this point if that's where we're headed.

»Justin, get in for you.

»Okay, type it in. Uh, oh, diversify Nibby's tax base and reduce the residential tax burden.

»There you go.

»I will make a substitute motion to

»Okay, that's a motion from Garrett for substitution.

»I'll second it. Sorry, Nick already got it

»and a second from Nick. So now we can talk about we're going to abandon the motion to amend and instead replace it with this substitute motion which is also a motion to amend, but it's a different substitute motion to amend.

»This stuff gets confusing.

»No, I like I think that's an important distinction to to help people understand

»why we want

»why. Yeah. I I mean by verified numbers Justin reported we collect a million dollars a year in property tax and we lose half a million dollars a year in point of sale sales tax.

»I thought you said 900,000. Thought that's what we

»in what?

»In lost point of sales.

»Uh I think it's here at 500,000.

»Oh, okay. All right.

»I have to look up the plan again. 70% point of sales are leaving Nibbi. $900,000 was what I wrote down last meeting.

»Well, I might remembered it.

»Or maybe Justin misspoke.

»Or maybe we had bad numbers last time.

»You can't.

»It's in the It's in the plan. I mean, it's in the It's in the plan. We It's the number I could never get to by looking at what the state I mean what the county tells us about uh sales tax. So what's the number say? Can we find it?

»We need to search a lot of different leakage. What? Did you find that?

»It's better to be consistent than to be accurate. So, it whatever the number is, I didn't I may have misspoke it, but I didn't make it up. It's from Fred Philpot with whoever they hired LBR. Right.

»There's the loss of 571K.

»Which?

»Yeah.

»69.

»Thank you. So, I probably misspoke last time. There it is.

»What page you on?

»69.

»Oh, that was close.

»Yeah, there's it's it's very well detailed and you have to get to the bottom line. I'm not even finding it. Per capital leakage.

»So, I'm looking at a table right there, Larry. Um, is that what you're looking for? Estimated loss revenue 570,000.

»That sounds right. Is that what you're looking at, Randy?

»Yeah. Okay. On the top there. Page 69.

»Yeah.

»First paragraph.

»Yeah. And that graph 70. Page 70.

»Up one more page, Justin.

»And then wording above first paragraph in on this page. Yeah.

»Very last sentence.

»Yeah.

»112.

»So that's that's just to what it means. Um and then I think an equally important thing we already mentioned it is the shift in property tax between residential and commercial and industrial. Residential is taxed at 55% of assessed value. Commercial industrial at 100% at least so far into the legislative session.

»Yes. I think it's

»might change.

»Might change.

»All right. Anything else on economic development?

»There's there's no motions to amend in front of us.

»There's just a substitute.

»Yeah.

»Okay.

»Wait, did we vote on it?

»Haven't voted yet.

»Oh, well, let's gee, let's let's vote on that. Why am I talking about this other thing? Motion to amend is to include that paragraph as substituted in the first paragraph of economic analysis in the general plan. Anyone opposed to voting on that amendment? Seeing none, those in favor, please say I.

»I. Any opposed? Okay. Thanks for keeping me on track. Now, we can talk about other things. I was I was surprised to see that our sales tax leakage hasn't really improved with online sales. So I think our increase in population without an increase in commercial has offset what we might be collecting in point of sale with online

»or the tax commission's screwing us over. too.

»They're not. We need to change our name. North Logan says they need to change their name to straighten that out.

»Zip zip codes.

»And I think we change it to South Logan, hoping to poach some of North regular Logan's point of sale.

»Recuse my thing by changing Logan to North Nib. But we don't control that variable, do we?

»Not yet.

»Right. Okay. Uh I think that's that's that's the end of the plan, isn't it?

»Well, that's our list for tonight. We still have to talk about,

»right? Then we'd circle back up to these others,

»but those others could take a while.

»Yeah.

»So,

»do we have more thoughts about those?

»So, if you want to go after those, even though I didn't suggest it, I think this is great work. I mean, you guys have done

»I think I I I didn't study the next sessions as well because I didn't think we'd get to them tonight. So,

»right motion, Larry, to continue um ordinance 2536 to the next meeting.

»Okay, we have a motion. Sorry, 2601. I I I'll state that again.

»We have a motion from Nick and a second from Randy to continue

»ordinance 2601. Excuse me.

»2601. We will pick this discussion up at where we left it with the amended draft. Doesn't mean we can't go back and change what we already changed or change things we didn't change in sections that we have already talked about. It's just to be clear. Um since we have since we're continuing this after amendments have been made, we'll pick it up where the amendments were made

»to form. Great. Good job. Uh, any discussion on the motion to continue? Seeing none, those in favor, please say I.

»I. Opposed. Okay, we'll do that. Look at that. We did it without Levi even. That's pretty good. And I know Levi put a lot of he he worked with the consultants a lot on this. So, good for him.

»Might want him for the next one, though. Yeah.

»Okay. Um that puts us to discussion and consideration uh amending code on open space subdivisions. And we're in a second reading. I think we're in a continuation of a second reading. So we have a motion to adopt. I don't without amendments and then we continued it. So pick it up from that point.

»So I emailed as I went through that entire code, I emailed Levi about a week and a half ago with a couple of, you know, do we want to take out the tier? Do we change the in the uh graph or in the you know spreadsheet? Do do we do we change that to because we have a minimum and an average and then every multiplier changes the minimum and average and I asked them do we want to just create an average period for each zoning to simplify that

»talking about lot size.

»Yeah.

»Okay. And then the other proposal that I made to him that he actually liked was, you know, as we've talked about the whatever the one on the horse property, Josh Loe's, what was it called?

»Gibbs. Yeah. You know, because we've talked about is it project or the location? Uh, so Levi and I talked about that a little bit in detail and I said, "Well, what if we did like what we did in the PUD?" Like maybe can we add something in there that states when you have an existing home that all lots that existing homes have to equate 80% of the width of the existing homes. technically it's creating a buffer uh because you could definitely do your smaller lots and everything in the interior but those that are about but existing homes and he he liked that idea because maybe that would help mitigate some of the other issues when you're up against existing homes and the only reason I brought that up is you know don't I think they have some expectation they know it's going to develop but does it develop in such a dramatic fashion that it's very distinctly different than theirs or do we because we did this in Firefly, you know, we had the halfacre lots and then with the town homes, we made them do quarter acre lots or I can't remember if we did a percentage or how that worked on the homes that were joining all of the existing homes to kind of create a buffer area. And I wondered if that is something we should amend and add into the open space subdivision that states when budding existing neighborhoods, you have to match them 80%.

»The rear yard and the sideyard. Yes. Talking about

»Yeah. So if you had a, you know, 12,000 square foot lot that's existing and you're abudding that, you'd have to be roughly 9,000 square feet.

»Oh, the lot size lot.

»Oh, I see. It's a lot has to meet or exceed 80% of the existing house existing

»residential lot

»just so it's not so drastic and it creates some

»you know some I guess gradual change in that

»transition

»but it would only it would only exist as a caveat when it's against existing homes. So, what if somebody lives on agricultural property, I don't know, 30 acres, just making it up, and they say, "H, we need some money or we don't want to farm 30 acres, but I'd still like to have a 5 acre hobby farm." Um, first of all, there is no 5 acre existing lot, right? So somehow we have to deal with 80% of the lot that we are creating, right? Or but how do we how do we do an 80% of five acres next to or let's say they're not even sell let's say there's just a house with they're a neighbor and they live on five acres and they're not part of the development. Now that conservation uh subdivision is constrained to anything that touches that 5 acre piece of property to 80% of 5 acres, right?

»Yeah. I mean, do you have some suggestions on wording or how you would

»I'm not even working on wording. I'm working on concept at this point.

»And I'm not being critical either. I'm just asking how how we what's the

»what's the remedy? You know,

»if there's like an upper threshold like up to half an acre or an acre like so if it's if it's more than half an acre, it's just going to there's an upper limit. If uh lots being created or the the existing lot

»the existing lot the existing home is is on something more than an acre or half acre or something then the the new lots going in there's like a certain threshold where they don't have to be bigger than right

»well the other discussion that I think it was Levi that might have suggested it in the email was you know maybe tying that 80% not to the existing home per se but when you have an existing home you tie that to the zoning and because R2 is like 155 minimum or something I think and then R2A is 12. So don't tie it to an existing law, but tie it to

»there would be an existing

»neighboring neighboring zoning actually, right?

»Yeah, that that was another idea that I think he threw out, but Oh, it was an idea that we were talking about to make some of these things work so that we can accomplish.

»Yeah. Um

»I don't know,

»Nick. I know you're ready to talk. Do you want to talk about Garrett's first one first?

»Yeah, sure. Garrett, this is it's funny. I feel like I'm having the same conversations we had in planning commission about this when we were talking about it. And the difficulty we came we had was it simply just always comes down to math, right? Like you can try and come up with every scenario to plan with, but ultimately based on the the bonus and then and the amount of open space, it all comes down to in the end, right? And that this is I'm just it's funny that we're having this conversation now because these were these things that we were trying to work through when we originally were discussing this here at the planning commission level was like trying to prescribe all of these variables when and ultimately it still comes down to x% x acreage of open space they get this number of homes. How do you

»and they have to legislate that

»and they have to build roads.

»It's tough. Yeah, it's tough. So just

»well and that's one of the that's one of the things I that's one of the suggestions I made to Levi is instead of having that tiered group which I realize that's just tied to the open space do we simplify it with each zoning has just an average

»that you'd have to create and because that's math

»I don't understand that either I'm sorry I'm just slow what what this is on your first point right

»yeah so I'm just having an average uh like you know in Mountain Vista the average size's 105 you know they'll have bigger lots smaller lots but they have to make an average of that

»okay

»that could mitigate some of the the other thing without having the existing caveat or something and but it it tears you know differently based on the open space in the chart right now but I I told Levi what if we just simplify that in in R2 we want an average of 10,500 foot lots. In an R2A, we want an average of 9,000 square foot lots and then that would mitigate itself out just by creating the law of averages.

»Can I just add one thought here to Gary? You okay with that? And that

»we're just having discussions. So,

»I just believe if first off, well, let's go out with your comment. I think from a citizen's point of view, they would um the surrounding neighborhoods, the the south side of Stonebridge and the other and the west side of the other one, they would I think wholeheartedly support that. If we're talking the Gibbs property, I mean, that's our prime example we're looking at. I think existing neighborhoods would would support that.

»Now, we're talking about two different things at once, right? No, I'm talking about the 80% concept.

»That concept alone, I think, would the citizens in the surrounding neighborhoods would full would would absolutely support that. I believe that Nathan, you're in the attached community as much as I am. That's my opinion. I think they would like, okay, that makes some sense and we're okay with what? Meaning, if you have smaller homes more in the middleish, that's okay. It's fine. It's visual. It doesn't It's okay. I don't know if it's practical, but I I'm just saying you'd have citizen support for that.

»Well, it was an idea, but then the mayor threw

»it is a mention that you made a good pointation.

»It's okay. But I I just want to be clear. Garrett in my mind mentioned two things. He said

»two things. When we have this percentage of open space um in this zone, that means you get an average lot size for that bonus and also we list a minimum lot size and you're saying elim. So point number one, Garrett, I think you're saying let's eliminate the minimum. Just say for this amount of open space, you get to have in this zone, you get to have an average lot size of this. And for a larger percentage of open space, you get to have a reduced average lot size and get rid of the minimums and then move to another zone.

»Right.

»And say, uh, for this amount of open space, 10%, you get to have an average lot size of this and forget the minimums. Right.

»Right. And that that was one of the suggestions I made, you know.

»And I don't know if you want to go back to that. I just want to make clear that we've talked about you mentioned two things in my mind.

»Two things I've discussed with. Yeah.

»And so I I just want to make sure like I know what we're which one we're talking about.

»And I and the downside to that, you know,

»to to which the first or the first one is the average is if you don't have a multiplier for open space, what's their incentive of doing more open space versus less? I know that's the argument against the idea because you're saying you only get this average. We're simplifying it.

»Oh, wait a minute. Maybe I don't understand. So the average lot size is not So in other words, the density bonus is not tied to the amount of open space that's provided.

»Well, no, my idea was just in the R2A zone.

»Yeah.

»You had an average lot size that you got in the open space subdivision that you had to do, which you know, say 10 five or I don't I don't know what the number is. And then in the R2A zoning, you had an average of say 9,000 square feet and you got rid of the minimums, but that also but by simplifying into just that one number per zone that create that eliminates that tiered multiplier too, which that

»one number per zone no matter what the percentage open space is.

»That was one of the ideas. Yes.

»Okay. Why would I do more open space?

»Well, we keep talking about open space and that's I I don't know. It's just an idea I was throwing around at Levi of how we might simplify this and make it work for everybody.

»I hate to interrupt. We have a technicality issue to solve real quick. We pass the open space subdivision for first reading in the last meeting.

»Oh, that's important.

»So, thank you, Barl, for

»Thank you. Appreciate that. So this is in front of you for

»haven't we talked about this but we just kept continued before we got to first reading. Oh thanks I'm glad glad you're helping us.

»So this it doesn't change our discussion. I we we passed this for first reading and this is our first time looking at it for second reading.

»Yeah. So that's a good point Garrett. Um,

»and that's the downside to it. But I

»I think it takes away the incentive to do more open space

»unless you just make the open space a minimum.

»But then, yeah, why would they ever do more? So,

»yeah, you have to think like a developer and that's to maximize the number of lots.

»Yep.

»And the ones I've talked to, you know, they're like, "Yeah, simplify it. We love that idea." But because then they don't have any incentive to have to do more open space which is probably why they liked it.

»So So do we we've talked about the concept or interested in making words? Arranging words. Is that a better way to put it? Maybe.

»Yeah. I wish Levi was here because that's who I was emailing. Did you have words in your email?

»No, I just had suggestions and ideas.

»Okay. Concepts.

»Just concepts.

»Can I ask a question, please? and realizing that I'm I'm so new at this and I'm so new at this discussion gone on for years, but do we want to have open space subdivisions? Meaning that it's going to create a a a public park space or a real at least that neighborhood a private park space developed and maintained by the city kind of a lifetime hook. I mean, is is this something that we we want to have happen continue in our city? And it's not a a criticism. It's just a question as much. Is this something going forward that we do want? Because I look at this and the more I read about it, the more I I I lose favor of it in the sense of we're looking at this talking about 40% of the homes can be as minimal as you can possibly make. I I wonder about that. That seems like four out of every 10 homes are going to be as small as possible. So I I just wonder if that partial of land that we we will now own and continue to maintain. I mean is is this worth it to us?

»Yeah. Let me

»question

»one one point of information without stating an opinion.

»Yeah.

»The ordinance does not require the city to own the open space.

»Okay.

»Um there are lots of examples where we have done these. In fact, there's probably more open space privately owned. where we have done these then open space publicly owned.

»So you talk like a cluster subdivision. Okay. Like where I'm at now I we love our cluster subdivision in Stonebridge. We maintain it. We pay a minimal fee of $15 a month. It could even be lower to keep it going. We have parties and people can use it reunions. It's it's been a great experience. So, I like that idea, but not as much with the city has to just on the lifetime hook.

»Yeah. And you're right on. And the city council, this this is the one place that the city council in the ordinance as it stands gets to be involved in deciding the value of open space is only if the city council is accepting ownership. the city is accepting ownership of that open space

»because the city is the only legislative body that can either abandon or accept ownership on behalf of the citizens.

»So, there's a lot of open space, right or wrong, that's private. Um I I there's a great example to me where this really worked and you get different opinions from different people. There are there are two subdivisions north one is on the north end of Hollow Road and one is north of that not uh one one is Brookfield. So that's a that comes off of Highway 165 makes a T. And this is a subdivision that was created before the open space subdivision. And they're large lots. They're halfacre and 3/4 acre lots. If you drive down that road, you see a house with a they're nice houses. You see a house with a certain frontage and all the open space is in the backyard. Everybody put the open space in the backyard cuz that's their space, right? And then Cottonwoods, which is off of the north end of Hollow Road, is a conservation subdivision. Same zoning density. And that said, we're going to create these conservation lots. And they're privately owned, but the houses sit in a cluster in the middle of the subdivision. And there's a stand of cottonwood trees that was valuable to the community and was preserved. And there's space uh between Hollow Road and the houses where they are clustered that there's a horse that hangs out in one of them. There's another one with is that Brookfield? That's that's Cottonwood. So you can see the open space. Maybe you can cursor over some of that. That's open space or conservation space. Um there's others there. And then if you go north to uh Brookfield, that's it. See, those are same size densities, but the open space is in everybody's backyard and not as valuable. That's a value judgment. Not as valuable to the community. Mhm.

»What?

»Yeah, that's a different subdivision. That's actually that's actually another uh open space subdivision, right?

»But that that was the idea that I mean people said we like looking at cows when we drive to work and or horses. I'm sorry. Now I'm species biased. No goats. Leave the goats out. Nobody likes goats. But that was the idea that um it there's value to the community to see that space and therefore incentivize a with a density and a cluster subdivision has been on the books forever. You could do this same thing in a cluster subdivision, but nobody wants to do it because there's no incentive to do it. Could we incentivize that? I mean,

»the cluster subdivision.

»I mean,

»yeah, it's called the open space subdivision. That's that is exactly what it is, right? Yeah, great question.

»Privately owned.

»Um, we get to decide. That's one of the only decisions we have left to us is uh whether we want the open space for the citizens or whether we want it to be in a plan for the subdivision that it'll be private. with their maintenance plan and everything else that they have to live to. And typically there's typically there's an HOA. That's the way it is in Mount Vista, right? Yep.

»An O HOA that owns and maintains the open space or in the one we were just looking at with Cottonwoods, those conservation lots are actually privately owned by a single person either way. But they have limitations on what they can do and the ordinance says what those limitations are. And I mean, I think the open space subdivision, conservation subdivision, however the name has changed over the years, I think it I think it did its job in a a number of cases. Um, you guys get to decide whether there's still a reason to do it or not.

»Yeah.

»Uh, Nick.

»Yeah. I mean, I I live in an open space neighborhood and I absolutely feel like it's a valuable asset to Nibi. I mean,

»we have privately owned open space with uh trails with the public easement and it's great to see people walk

»HOA own.

»Yes.

»Right.

»That we maintain. Um and uh it's great, you know, people are using all the time. People that don't live in our neighborhood walking through saying hi. It's it's been great. I I I think for us um the only issue I have with this one, Garrett, is and I'll restate kind of what I said earlier is um with the R2A, it's just the math, you know, with the lot sizes that just in order to grant the number of lots based on the bonus, it's just the math, right? Um whereas like the R2, uh you you talked about the average lot size. Well, that's slowly becoming just a normal average lot size now, right? And so my constrnation I think for me on this is um to the nibbly citizen right when we legislate an R2A zone um they that comes with some expectations I think to me right and then suddenly if if we allow an R2A or well in this concept where an R2A open space is private open space suddenly that decision and and the entitlements that come with it is like now now it's we're going from a 12,000 foot idea of what you know R2A is to now much much smaller right and I just feel like we're trying to jam this thing together where maybe it's just not a natural fit and and some of these concepts that we're talking about with um what Levi wrote and in some of the zoning maybe that just needs to be its own zone that we can determine if we want and where it just I just feel like it's

»and remove the R2A from the open space

»together.

»Yeah, that's another idea.

»And and we can go we can go case by case. I I see no problem with that. But it's just to me it's like if Yeah. If we say, okay, we're going to grant you R2A. There's always the possibility, right, that this could happen even outside of the legislative body before us. And that's a hard conversation to have to a citizen, right? Um whereas if we separate it, we still can get this that outcome. We we just get to decide amongst the council if that makes sense in our city in my opinion. If we separate this all together and say we actually like the maybe even the the ordinance that or the zone this description right in this ordinance that Levi created. Let's put it there, but let us decide versus like it could happen and it may not even be in our

»but you're you're talking about writing a new zone.

»Yes.

»Right. And then the council's empowered to make the decision on the reszone. Correct.

»Right. Okay. I wanted to make make it clear that

»the open space subdivision we have now, the council may or may not be involved in approving that subdivision. It's only if the citizens are supposed to take ownership of land uh open space land, right?

»So, so okay, I see your head. Yeah. Um, it I mean I love Do you mind if I weigh in on that? Okay. I I love the idea that it becomes a legislative decision and that's the reason, right? Um because I feel like and I've said this before, I feel like we have lost the council has lost the ability to negotiate on behalf of the citizens for what is valuable in terms of the community open space. Uh whether it's owned by the city or owned privately either way. So we've lost that ability to negotiate what's of value to the community. Um that would what you're saying is you we probably wouldn't go reszone anything to this open space type zone until we got a request for it.

»Yeah.

»Right.

»Yeah. And and I'll I'll offer why the explanation I get as to why we've worked the city council out of this decision in the first place is because developers don't want to put up with it.

»And that's fine. We're not here to serve developers. We're we're here to serve our citizens and we have responsibility perhaps to provide housing and services and those kinds of things. We can talk about that. But it takes work to generate a concept plan. It takes work to make the math work out. It takes, you know, it takes a bunch of stuff. And then um the council can turn their nose up at it or say, "Yeah, that's a good plan." And so I'm not I I think I think if we want that kind of open space subdivision, it disincentivizes what we want from a developer point of view. Fair point though.

»Yeah. No, I

»I get it. Yeah, that's a very likely possibility. And a lot of times, you know, we'll see. I think depending on what planning theory you read, um, cities should one one one theory says city should be zoning land to a theory to a to a concept to a this is what we want this part of town to be, not reszoning land to a proposal,

»right? you say this is what we want. We want this over here and this over here and this over here and this over here and proposals that fit that for this area are entitled. Um but it's hard to stick to that discipline because as soon as somebody comes in for a reason, what do we say? What do you want to do? Show us your concept and we'll think about the reason. So that's the other that's the other theoretical approach to planning. Nathan,

»I'm going to give you an amendment.

»Okay. Uh to remove R2A from all the tables and consideration for open space subdivision.

»Okay. Okay. Motion from Nathan and second from Garrett to remove uh all references and all entitlements of R2A on the open space subdivision ordinance.

»Oh, do you not have that yet?

»We're here on second reading. Okay. So, I'm going to deny that and ask someone to give me a motion to accept. Thank you, Cheryl. Nick,

»I'll make a motion to accept ordinance 2536.

»I keep forgetting that we're not here on continuation. We're here on second reading. So, there's a motion and a second from Garrett to uh adopt this for second reading. And then I think I have a motion. I'm going to say I have a motion from Nathan and a second from Garrett to remove references to R2A from the open space subdivision ordinance. Um I'm very much in line with Nick's thinking here. Um, I think that um uh we've lost what what R2A was. I think it still serves a purpose for the lots that we know are not common lot sizes in nibbly anymore, which is everything below in R2A.

»Um, we are in a spot where I don't like our current code. I don't love this code. I'm okay with this code if we remove R2A. and we need to move forward, right, on what we're going to do. Um, to answer Ry's question earlier is do we even want these anymore? Uh, conveniently, we just talked about that in in the general plan, right? And we literally just amended a sentence that said we will do this, but we didn't limit it to just this as as mayor talked about. We didn't limit to just this is the way to do it. Um,

»and I so I feel like we need to do something that we're comfortable with with this. Um, back in August, I think I told I texted a few on the planning and zoning. I I gave some language that was super vague that I just wanted added to what was then the current open space that basically just said you will consider surrounding lot sizes and and have a variety according to that.

»But that was when we could legislate it.

»Yeah.

»Right. And so it would have made sense, but now that we can't, I think,

»yeah,

»we need to come up with what we're comfortable with as a city. And and currently I'm not comfortable with our current code. Um, and I'm only comfortable with this if we remove R2A. So that's why we're where we're at.

»Very much.

»I don't think we're going to get a ton of open space subdivisions in the meantime,

»but who knows?

»Yeah. And and the last time we wrote our plan, by the way, um we seriously considered only allowing

»open

»open space subdivisions.

»They were working for us.

»Maybe that day is gone. Sorry, Garrett.

»No, I'm sorry. Didn't mean to interrupt.

»You're okay.

»Go ahead.

»I was going to say I mean because there's so many good examples, but they were all done under R2.

»Yeah.

»And the only reason we did this is there really was no incentive.

»Yeah. But I think we've realized we don't want that incentive. And so

»yeah, I

»and we're going to have to create some new zones with the new

»You guys are you're hitting it. I I actually I don't know what the code is that would work, but I know the biggest detractor every time I've been involved with an open space subdivision, you look at a plot plan and the neighbors look at a plot plan and all I see is the size of the lot and they don't see the benefit of what's not a residential lot. This happened in Cottonwoods, which I which I'll hold up as an example of a successful uh uh open space subdivision, but there was a ton of opposition because nobody looked at what was around the cluster of houses. They said, "Look at the size of that lot. That's smaller than mine. That's a problem." I get it. It's hard to visualize. In fact, the proponent of that at the time, I think I told you this, he built a little model with cows and everything. I mean,

»and he tried to say, "Look, this is what it's going to be."

»Sure.

»It's there. It's in the ground.

»Did people sentiments change before the subdivision went in? Um, I surveyed neighbors after it got built and got the people that lived there and the people that were around it overwhelmingly thought it was a good project. Now, that doesn't mean that people that live on the south end of Hollow Road that look at the size of those lots compared to the 10 acres that they live on that they think it was a good idea. And so they're not in nibbly. They're on 10 acre lots. I I point that out for a reason. They think it was a terrible idea. You live on Hollow Road. Is that a fair representation? I mean, when I go to meetings about annexations and what might happen and so on and so forth, it's like

»look at the size of that lot. And I say,

»look at the open space. Yeah, I was I say we had that exact, if you remember when Mount Vista was proposed, this room was packed with people saying those same argument. You're going to lower my value. Those slots are too small. And I know every single one of those people actually likes Mount Vista and walks on those trails.

»Put a gate up. Well,

»you got a public park, Nathan. I don't know why I want to talk about this, but I'm going to bring it up. Um, how big was the Ridgeline Park? All phases included and as well as the park

»90 acres.

»Was it 90?

»It seems like about 90.

»Any where I'm headed is there's like the macro and micro level of of this concept. Um, Ridgeline gave us 20 acres of open space essentially. Um, it wasn't part of the actual agreement. It was just part of it, right? But you can see the macro level or a little bit bigger scale compared to some of the other ones we've talked about open space-wise in their development. And uh, I I struggled with Ridgeline Park personally when it was passed. Um, but we could have done a lot worse. And and so I just I point this out in that when you look at the city as a whole, you can think, well, we want an open space city subdivision, right? Uh, and I think that's what our general plan is alluding to, that we want spaces throughout the city. We don't want to just be urban um concrete everywhere, hard surfaces as we were told in our storm water plan. Um and so there's there's large ones like this that I think are hard for people to look at, but in the grand scheme of things, it it's done pretty well as opposed to what we can see throughout other places. Um, and then you look really micro, right, into you could have four lots in an open space subdivision if you really wanted, right? Um, I don't know why I'm bringing it up. It's just it's it's a concept of thinking of of it. It applies in sizes. It implies the territory. it applies in in what's a useful resource of the cities, whether we want to annex it or or develop it or is it cost more to even maintain it, whether it's private or not. Um, and so I I think we're we're at where we're at. I don't think we'll see a whole lot of open space subdivisions with this change. Um, but it gives us time to to figure things out. there is a reszone application for um the property we've talked about the Gibs property again to be an R2A and I'm not thrilled that we're just going to get cookie cutter houses in that in that area um because of what we could have had but I also didn't like the current uh ordinance and and what it was proposing um so it's just a lot of ranting um but it's what's going through my head so I thought I'd share Yeah, while we're thinking about that, I'll point out I've I've gotten to know some people that live in that gray area there. There's some great people that are huge contributors to our community and they will continue to contribute. I mean, they're interested in all kinds of things that are good for the community.

»Yeah, we just had an orthodontist open house. Did anybody else go? That was kind of fun. Ignore the what?

»Is the orthodontist office just opened over there?

»Would 20 acres be like 20%.

»Yeah,

»it was 95 96 up there.

»The park.

»Yeah,

»the park I think it was 19.

»Yeah. So, it's

»about 20% little less than.

»That's a macro level.

»Yeah. what 20% looks like with some of the highest density we allow nibly.

»Yeah. So, we have a motion to amend. Any more discussion? Okay. Uh let's vote on the motion to amend to remove R2A from the open space subdivision. Those in favor say I.

»I.

»Any opposed? Okay, that's the amended motion. Let's see. There's other stuff that happened in the draft we have from the planning commission. I don't want us to forget about those. We're making progress. I'm not denying that at all. you want to adopt it with the other changes recommended by the planning commission. There's probably something in the background to remind us of what those changes were. Yeah, I'm just I'm running through with the amendment we just adopted if there are domino changes that maybe need to happen

»in the ordinance.

»Yeah. I'm hoping we can cleanse that out and honor the council's intent. Yeah. Take out R2A. I mean, we just stuck it in, so we should be able to take it out before it takes root. Justin, are you seeing other things that uh Levi had told us were being changed? There we go. To my memory, it was just prescribing further conditions to make it work. So, if we remove it, R2.

»Yeah. And it's done.

»Further conditions to make R2A work.

»And to make it work. Exactly.

»A lot of threads to find

»to your needles, you know.

»Yeah.

»I don't know. Mayor, do you think we need a motion for each one or

»Well, it makes me wonder if all of these were added to make R2A work, we just stick with the ordinance we have. So, that there might be improvements here.

»Yeah. Doesn't the ordinance we have allow it now?

»Yes.

»Well, I'm sorry. Um, go back N minus one.

»Yeah. Essentially one

»you say your substitute or the new motion would be deny everything and remove R2A.

»Yeah.

»Right. Right.

»But you can't deny because then R2A stays in.

»Correct. I mean, you you could do a motion to revert back,

»I guess. Is that

»we have that written down?

»Zotr

»Don't do control altdelete. I don't even think that works anymore. That just brings up a task manager. It's not automatic in other words.

»So can I ask so just for my own education here in order to follow procedure I guess we're having to the question is do we need to deny any further recommendation from the planning commission even though the motion was to remove um the open R2A as an open space subdivision option. Do we not just get the same result either way? I'm asking.

»Well, these don't necessarily re apply to only R2A. They could have been added to make R2A work,

»but

»but I have to go read the words to see if

»right

»if they would go away if the reference to R2A goes away,

»Nathan.

»So, I'll give you a motion to continue.

»Yeah, I think that's very appropriate. And uh

»um I think that's appropriate. I have a motion and a second from Garrett. Okay. So I shouldn't say that's appropriate before I have a second. My apologies.

»Well, it was an appropriate motion. I didn't do it inappropriately.

»Okay.

»Uh let me let me before we before we vote on that and discuss it even is let's let's talk about the progress we made, right? put a stake in the sand here and that's that we we're just not sold on R2A in the conservation subdivision. So, we have a couple of options. We could revert back to a a previous version that didn't have R2A in it or we could go through and purge R2A that got added. And also I think we should look at these other

»the red line changes to say maybe there was something good in there and we should hold on to it or maybe not.

»And I would I'd lay that path for us to do this again. Any other thoughts on that? And by the way um not sure we've discussed this recently. As long as we're in public working on this uh ordinance, there's a period of 18 months. It's the same as the period of moratorum, the moratorium period that we can not we are allowed to not accept applications while we're working on the ordinance. In other words, public meeting someone like the planning commission even starts working on a developer says, "Oh, they're going to change it and I'm going to get in before the the gate closes." There's a limit to that, right? If we work on this too long, and I'm not sure if it's 18 months, maybe it's six months, I don't know. But

»but while we're working on it, people don't get to try to sneak in before the gate closes.

»We did that with our PUD.

»Say it again louder.

»We did that with our PUD.

»Yeah, with RP I don't know. I wasn't here for that, but Right. But that makes a lot of sense, right? because we're trying to do the public's business in public. Okay. Uh discussion on the motion to continue. Again, we'll pick it up with uh the amended motion to purge R2A. And in fact, we might even get a redlinined version of that, which would be uh consistent with the amended motion.

»The continues the Continue amendment. Motion to continue. Garrett. Thanks, Cheryl. Uh, objection to voting. Seeing none, those in favor of continue, please say I.

»I.

»Any opposed? Okay, good job.

»2026

»goals,

»of course.

»How about no meeting will go past 1010? fast.

»Erin, do you have goals for us?

»I do, actually.

»Let's do it.

»Okay, I got a bunch bunch of

»And you have a white piece of paper to write in, Justin.

»Perfect.

»Okay, these are just some loose suggestions I've been thinking about this week. One that carries over from last year's goals, continue to work on an indoor recreation facility. And I think said something about being a leader in pushing that agenda forward. So, I think that'd be appropriate to continue that from last year. Um, something a line in our potential general plan. Um, I can't tell you the page number, but I wrote it down. It says stakeholders are also, oh, the stakeholders that we interviewed encouraged the city to pursue strategic economic development through targeted recruitment, branding, coordination with regional partners. So in that vein, I think um a goal to pursue economic development in our city might be appropriate. Um uh I called Justin and kind of figured out or found out what went down with your meeting with Hyum a few weeks ago and it seems like we have some some conversations that we need to have with some of our neighbors about annexation and borders. So, this is just I mean this is a suggestion. We can shoot this one down, but maybe figuring out um a southern annexation border between us and Hyum I think might be appropriate or at least having some clarification between our cities about where our border should be.

»That was probably on the list from last year too, wasn't it?

»Yeah. Um, another thing, another another goal that we could talk about, um, seems like, uh, Justin and mayor have done a lot of good work lately. I'm meeting with other cities, city managers, mayors. I've met with some Hyram city councilors the other day and have been chatting a little bit with Wellsville. Um, so I wonder if we might make a goal as a city to try and meet with other municipal alities around us like maybe once a month or something and try and just have um conversations about topics that pertain to both of our cities or all of our cities. So more like municipal planning topics. Um

»is that a city council meeting or a a non-cormed meeting?

»No, I think a non-cormed meeting. I'm not

»Yeah. Um, one thing that I've wanted to do, and I I mean, I dropped the ball last year, but I'm going to blame that on the fact that I had a baby, but one thing I want to do this year, I would love to have a multi-ity pickle ball tournament, city council pickle ball tournament, which is basically just a a front for getting city councilors together from lots of cities to get to know each other and to create relationships. So, it doesn't have to be a pickle ball tournament, although that would be the most fun thing. It could just be a chance to invite other city councilors from other cities to come and get to know them.

»People just be hurt when we beat them.

»I mean, of course, we're going to beat them, but yeah, think about that later. Those are the ones I want to suggest right now.

»Thanks, Nathan.

»Oh, sorry. I thought we moved to the mic. I didn't pull down.

»Uh let's look at 2026 and see what needs to be promoted. Do you mind?

»25. I mean, right,

»Nathan.

»So, I like the planning and zoning. I like the planning commission's goals. I think that they are good and uh there are definitely some that we will need to also be part of and and support. Um, I really like the corridor pro problem of 165. Um, yeah, I like errands, too. But, um, I just want to make sure we

»Yeah. So, yeah. Let's put a bullet on our goals that says also do planning commission goals. Yeah. Right.

»Yep. Thank you. Yeah, I'll get to my other one. Okay. Uh, I think that our city um needs to come up with a um not necessarily a plan, but a communication plan or a um you know, do do we need to look at does our city need a communications director? and um need to look at um new mediums and and ways that we communicate with with the community and with each other and with our our neighbors.

»So maybe a study of our communication um procedures and policies.

»So those exist in other towns.

»Yeah.

»PIOS. Yep.

»And they manage Facebook and put out tweets and do uh what are you going to do in your spare time then or are you gonna apply for the job retirement? I think that's a great idea.

»They're good. They're good.

»How big are those towns that have those?

»Providence city has one.

»Okay.

»Full time. Megan McKustin and she might have other duties but that's she manages their communication and social media and

»Chad me.

»Yeah.

»If you're going to go that way.

»Yeah.

»Right.

»Strategic communication plan I guess is

»I'm just teasing.

»Yeah. Good. Um I I think our next step on the um no I'm not looking at the commercial commercial well economic development is to write a economic development plan.

»I mean hire someone to help us figure out what what that means. I

»think we hired some Utah State students for free this year. They gave us some good suggestions.

»They didn't figure out how to pay for it though. Oh yeah,

»and we actually

»consider the feasibility

»and the general plan gave us some of that.

»It started it.

»I think there's there's there's specific questions I just don't have answers to that I would like to I've been hoping for this for a long time and I don't know that we're any closer than we have been. So I want someone to say actually just Fred Philpot I asked him the guy that did the economic in our general plan. And I said, "So, how far away from He said, ' It'll get there, right? And he knows all about Providence growing south and he knows all about Logan. He knows our area. And I won't tell you what he said, but I was very disappointed in the answer he told me it would take to get there.

»How many years?

»Years.

»Oh, yeah. If we just naturally wait for for commercial development to come. I'm not even sure that he suggests there's anything we can do to accelerate it, but I would like an expert to at least set my expectations appropriately.

»Okay.

»And I'm going to call that a a plan, economic plan.

»Thanks. Dis

»We have lots of storm water. We have lots of ground water to cool it off with. take all that water from the sump pumps and

»who cares if we put it back into a little bit warmer.

»Yeah. And and Aaron, I really I agree with you completely. I It's not just We can get to this briefly in reports, but there is so much for Nibbly City to coordinate with our neighbors on. It blows me away. Mhm.

»The amount of work. I think I said in the last council meeting on a staff report, I I probably spend as much time worrying about how to get along with the neighbors or worrying about brag or, you know, as as the mayor as I do just focused on nibbly problems.

»There's there's we're growing together,

»which I think is as it should be, right? Like we are not in a silo. All of these most of these problems pertain to all of us. We're all dealing with them and that they don't these issues don't respect boundaries.

»And our silos maybe we used to be in silos, but our silos are getting fat.

»Yeah.

»They're increasing in circumference.

»Well, when you and Justin carry most of that load, but maybe we could help offset some of that,

»right?

»Yeah. Great. Um,

»not sure how, but

»there there are

»maybe there's ways.

»That's why I was asking about non-corummed. Um,

»yeah,

»there's just a lot of stuff that gets talked about that's not even ready for a proposal yet. It's just ideas. Mhm.

»And I don't know, Justin, you got any ideas about how to spread that load or share that load or get counseling unless you counsel involved?

»Say just probably keep updated on what's being talked about and come up with brainstorm like this.

»Communications.

»I'll tell you where I think the council is going to earn their keep. When the mayors can't get along and the city managers can't get along, you guys are the grassroots, right? You go, you guys are doing a great job of it. I think our indoor wreck has kind of spurred the idea, but the mayor doesn't get to decide in any of these towns and the city manager doesn't get to decide in any of these towns. The council will. And so I think this idea of a council network

»and that's where you guys can come in say look I know I know these council members in these other towns and we've been talking about stuff and I'm going to go lobby them and I'm going to have them tell the mayor what they think because that's what matters.

»We can work out these issues on the pickle ball court

»and I was going to get to that. I'm not sure it's a pickle ball court but Um, I thought about maybe not pickle. It's the council network. I mean, what if we had there's the mayor's association, which I it has no authority, has no quorum. It has no it's not a public med. It's not a public body, but we don't talk about much either. And every time the mayors want to start doing something that would affect spending money on of a public entity like shoehorn the or strongarm the county into something or do something about waste pickup trash pick I say no we can't do that because we represent a public body as a waste consortium. We can't get together and unless it's a noticed meeting. So we we need I think a social network council association those are all good words that that'd be a great idea and and but I'm going to encourage you all to you know develop relationships with council members in other towns

»and maybe you just need a reason like a wreck wreck uh special service district and then you build on Nick,

»just a question. Um, of the 25 goals, how many

»from 20? Oh, 25.

»Yeah. How many do we feel like we accomplish?

»Yeah.

»On this list. I'm just trying to gauge like how many items do we need if it's hard to get them all right or should we just prioritize a shorter list?

»So, I can give you a quick rundown if you would.

»I would I would appreciate.

»Yeah, do it. Yeah. So, number one, we feel like we did that pretty well. We looked pretty hard about whether or not to sell the house next door. And right now, things are just kind of breaking even uh on all actually all of our rental houses. And so, until that changes or we have a really identified need, then we're probably not ready to pull the trigger on selling any of those right now. Um feel like we've done a we've made a lot of changes to code enforcement and how things will win. So, good, bad, and different. We feel like we definitely have put effort into that one.

»Do you think we're there?

»Uh, well,

»okay. That's another discussion.

»Yeah. Number three, that's really for you guys to answer more than me. I feel I'm not exactly sure on that one. Feel like we I don't even know who wrote that. Uh number four, mayor's been very involved in the cash fire district discussion as well as other discussions on fire. So we feel like we've done that one pretty well. I feel like we've definitely done number five on being the leader in the indoor recreation. Number six is continues to be elusive. Um

»yeah,

»done some things. We've got uh the state is helping us with I thought an economic plan, but it's more of a list, a laundry list of how to build an economic plan. So, we we've we took some steps here, but I feel like just like mayor was just alluding to, uh we definitely could do better there. Number seven,

»we've done that.

»Like we're following the state code there. We haven't had many discussions about changing that code. So, if you want to hit that one again, we could certainly add that one. I feel like number eight, we've done okay at we've had Facebook posts, we've included things in the utility bill. Not sure what else we could do there.

»It's the first thing you see on the website now.

»Yep.

»Like I think we've done a good job

»and the mayor explained that really well in the newsletter. Y

»So,

»yeah. So, no question on that. Number eight, which I just love. I when more people get involved the better the better things go I believe. Is there a way to measure that? How many people in the city actually subscribe to that?

»That's a good question.

»That's a great question. I wondered that

»we can measure it and then we can see improvement.

»I don't know if that's private or not.

»We wouldn't ask for details for sure.

»You'd have to ask the state

»the state of government that'd be great. Cheryl will follow up on that.

»We just need just just an aggregate would be cool. Yeah. How many hits and they could go back and probably

»that'd be great.

»Sign up. Many people sign up

»or Well, you don't know where they're from. I'd want to know like how many people how many times has someone clicked on Nibbly City count, you know, or whatever.

»Whatever data you got given us.

»Doesn't hurt to ask.

»Geographic location.

»Oh, yeah. IP addresses. IP address. All right, Cheryl's gonna get back to us on that one. Thank you for volunteering. Number nine, review emergency plan and policies. Know this something we continue to do. You know, I'd give us a B on that one. maybe B minus. You know, things come up all the time. We're working on with state requirements and plans and things like that, but just to sit down and wholesale kind of go over the whole thing and we we could probably maybe do a little better there.

»Can we did

»uh we have looked at the water and the storm water rates. The water rate was done. The storm water was just done in the master plan. We'll have much more discussion about that in the in the future. Uh, this one we haven't we continue to work on. Seems like we talked about doing

»Yeah, we applied for a grant to kind of we have diff like different routes of subdivision and they're kind of sometimes overlap, sometimes don't overlap. And we felt like we could kind of re do a review of all of our subdivision code and consolidate what can be consolidated and just make it cleaner and easier.

»Whether we can actually accomplish that. I mean, we have lots of discussion tonight on on that topic already.

»I think good time to actually do that is when we have a new general plan.

»Yeah. I'm not sure that the plan is going to head us in a I'm not I'm not guessing how what you all will do whether the the new general plan heads us in a completely different direction maintain status quo or does whatever but kind of that's how it goes. You write a plan then review your ordinance to make sure it's implemented.

»Yeah.

»And then number 12 I think we're doing pretty well on. We do have meet a lot with other municipalities, other state agencies and things going on. So, I think we've done that one pretty well.

»I don't know if that helped.

»Yeah, it does. Thank you.

»It's like 80%. That's

»Yeah, we're all Give us a B.

»We worked on 80%. I don't think we achieved 80%.

»I didn't really achieve,

»right? We didn't quantify any of these as as Ry's suggestion on the Utah public notice would let us quantify a increase in hit rate. Smart goals.

»Smart goals. I hate those. Too accountable

»goals.

»Cheryl likes smart goals.

»Yes, she does.

»I got another proposal for new one similar to the communication. Um and it goes to some of the discussion we just had which is um at some point um I think we as a city need to start uh collecting data and have a repository for that data a data lake a warehouse that may involve a administrator or contracting with another facility but just collecting and um maintaining a data lake or warehouse. So this would be stuff all like we have data but it's siloed and it's separated.

»Bring it into a warehouse or lakehouse. You can now do some analysis.

»You bet. Survey data, the amount of building permits, the amount of

»all kinds of stuff that exists but is siloed.

»Can we put it in the public domain on AI and let them sure find it for us? Yeah. Actually, these are all public records. Yeah,

»it's more of like a a looking into if we need to if we're there yet of a database administrator and data analysis or contracting outside of our own staff.

»Okay.

»We we go out and hire people to do plans, but no one ever does like analysis on questions we have at a city level. So, for example, um how much did it cost us to install and then remove mountable islands, right? You guys are required to figure that out and rather than can we just run some code and do a data analysis because we have a lakehouse that can figure that out for us. That's a bad example, but

»okay, you got to put that into a sentence form. I

»I'll get it next time, but we're just workshopping here. But, um just uh consider a strategic kind of data warehouse or data collection policy structure framework in the word feels like every state agency is currently tackling this problem in my experience at least

»then you get to have meetings on retention schedules and

»yeah and uh Data governance

»disability right now.

»I think that's good.

»Yeah. What's our What's our next steps as far as these go? You want us to think about them and

»Yeah. And and I think we should quantify them.

»Um I guess I'm in a confessing mood these days. I'm not sure. I looked at the 20 25 goals until someone said we should have 20 26 goals. So, help me make a commitment to and Justin's much better at this than I am, but look back at our goals and make sure that we're working on them.

»Let's print them out, please. Once they're once we solidify them, print them out and I can keep them in my my city council.

»Not the data warehouse.

»Yeah, you're the warehouse.

»No, not the data warehouse. It'll get lost there. I won't go there.

»This will be the first thing that goes in the warehouse. ultimate budget goals.

»All right, I'm going to call that good.

»Can I I'll just throw something out that I've been feeling the weight of

»for a while now. I feel like Nibbli City is at a weird spot in our growth and we need to start thinking about managing and taking care of things ourselves as opposed to contracting everything out with everybody else. Uh we I frequently very very frequently complain about other government entities who have done that for decades and the issues they're facing now. If they would have just ponyied up when they should have and took it by the horns and took care of things, we wouldn't be in the situation we are in now. So, you know, just example that is uh you know, fire uh is is the big one right now that that is really kind of out there and we talk a lot about being owners or renters and what do we want to do and what are we willing to sacrifice to be owners instead of renters and what effort do we want to put towards that? I think some effort and some thought ought to be put into that. Yeah. And I some of these things that we're dealing with with neighboring cities is all about that question. We've we've been a we've received the benevolence of other cities as a little brother sister relationship and we're kind of catching up to these other cities

»and at some point um that's good enough. There are if you're going to live in a house for 30 years should you buy it or rent it? Sure.

»And there's there's cost of ownership, but there's also benefits of ownership. I think it's a I think as we look at that, Justin, do you agree that it's it's really a case- byase basis, but it's it's becoming an overwhelming

»uh overarching overwhelming sort of thought that drives me every time I talk about this stuff.

»Yeah. just seems like comes up a lot lately,

»right?

»And it always costs more tomorrow than it will today.

»On either reg or it's just the one we have control of and one we don't some control of. Right.

»Yeah, that's a great one. When did Nibbley buy their first snow plow? If we had a data warehouse, we'd be able to answer that question.

»I know my dad drove it

»80

»80s

»nish.

»So,

»it's nice pl

»contracting out. You mean as a renter, we do things through interlocal agreements, right?

»I didn't know if you were headed towards we should turn public works into a construction agency. No. Okay.

»And we've we've brought professional professional services in house.

»Yeah.

»Right. But those are our own professional services. You're talking about these things that provide services to citizens.

»Yeah.

»Yep. I don't know how to go about tackling that goal, but I think

»one at a time. Yeah, lot of case by case

»Can we use data scraping in this conversation somewhere?

»All right, let's move on. You okay with that? Thanks, Justin. Thanks, council. Tom, do you have anything, Dad? Or Cheryl? No one said anything about what time meeting should end.

»Okay, let's do council and staff reports, please.

»Randy, do you want to go first?

»I just um wanted to say a big thank you to Steve and the crew. I've I heard so many compliments from my neighborhood that uh the streets looked wonderful after the snow. We're just so appreciative. Yep. Thank you,

»Nick.

»Yeah, just to further that sentiment, I just want to make sure everyone and staff realizes and knows and we've I've talked to many of you individually. Just just want to thank you for being respectful to everyone in in all situations. Um and uh it's always appreciated. So, just want to thank you. Thank everybody for that. Okay, that's it for me. Thank you.

»Thank you, G. Okay, I actually wrote things down. So, I have a couple things. Uh, one just to think about, you know, with this House bill reducing tax exemption from 45 to 60.

»Well, if they do pass that, what's that going to look like? I believe they kind of lost its steam for a

»they Nick could speak more better to this than I could but more of a requirement for commercial properties to report their sales data to get because that's I think the

»real estate sales.

»Yeah. Sorry. Thank you.

»Okay. Uh second, um the weeks did call me um that were here earlier about their ticket and I did reach out to Levi because I told them, "Oh, you should have got a warning." Um they said they didn't. I asked Levi. He said they did. I was just wondering when they got that warning. Like is that some like how if it was if it was like 6 months ago, then they probably have forgot cuz they swore up and down they never got a warning. But Levi says they did. So, I guess I would like to know when and how long are those warnings good for and maybe that's another policy discussion to have later. Um, you know, when does the clock start over or does it start over? Uh, I have to thank Chad. He texted me snow's coming. I almost got a ride. Oh, dang snow. Why did it have to come during the day? I was so excited. I was ready to be up at 4 and uh

»only I could think about is is Garrett in a truck? some clouds and I wondered is Garrett in one?

»Oh, unfortunately they got done and it stopped snowing by evening because he said well we'll go tonight if it's still snowing but of course it stopped. So I am going to hook up with Jet one of these days but he's been on top of it texting me and I so appreciate that because I'm I'm really looking forward to that point of view. And uh oh, and then the last thing uh Cheryl, you're asking for the spring conference. I found out this week that I have a conflict, so I can't go to that. So don't you don't need to sign me up for that. Darn it. But that's all I have.

»Thank you, Garrett. Karen,

»I don't have anything to add. Nathan.

»Uh, similarly, I had some conversations in the wonderful world of online forums um about code enforcement and I threw out some scenarios of if the city wants to decide if it's a complaint based city or a a reactive city, proactive city as far as code enforcement. Um, granted only had about two respondents give feedback, but um, mayor, I'm going to ask either we consider putting that on agenda again soon or consider throwing together like a task force or committee with one or two council members and some people to think about it at least. Um, uh,

»can I go on to

»I'm going to go on to another one. So, if you want to jump in, now's the time.

»Okay, I'm going to jump in. I agree with you completely.

»Okay. I be clear on that just on review code enforcement like what like

»our code enforcement preference of being uh reactive or proactive.

»Okay.

»So are we going to be a complaint based

»as we were for decades

»as we were for 20 years and nibbly was a better place to live because of it. Um or are we going to have a code enforcement officer and if we have a code enforcement officer what are the parameters? What time of day can he write tickets? and we take more control on the code enforcement officer.

»You put it in the five on Facebook really well. I spent two hours trying to answer those five questions. I didn't even know you had asked those five questions, but I spent two hours literally with a with a resident trying to get to a conclusion in a discussion asking those five questions. I ended up with we should not have a I'll say it as I told him I would say it. We should not have a code enforcement officer because the people don't want it.

»He's referencing five options I gave the people in the online forum.

»Yeah. So,

»I'm happy to send

»Yeah, please do because I don't do

»I I I think what I think the agenda item is we need to have we need to think about code enforcement on a council.

»And I don't know. I mean, do you want to I'm jumping right into what I was going to talk about. Do you want to do you want a steering committee to go after that? Um or do you want to do it in council meeting? I've I've experienced both and I I both have their benefits. I really like the animal land use committee experience.

»Um

»okay.

»Anyway,

»we'll figure it out. Thanks for letting me jump in on you.

»Yeah, no problem.

»Quick comment. Uh just to be aware of Cheryl and I had some discussions today. Any you do put on Facebook is grammarable. So if you do get into many discussions, one of the problems municipalities are facing is that to go back and get those out of Facebook is not always as easy as it seems. And some people are having to pay software providers to be able to get around ways and get into the depths of Facebook comments to find all those things. So just be aware of that as you continue to uh engage on Facebook.

»not just Facebook

»exact any social media.

»Okay.

»Uh in my discussions I looked at our priority snow removal map and I was wondering when we look at those and when we update those and if that's what public works does. Last time was 2020. We've had a lot of new roads. So, I just just a question or a suggestion of you might want to look at it. At least the one on the website is from 2020. So, but I love that site by the way. That page covered a lot of If you have people asking, send them to that page. It's super useful. Just on our website, the snow removal site. Uh like Nick, I participated in an interview with the rural economic blueprint program. I thought it was great. Um I I again will ask maybe there's there's that USU extension program if if you guys think we should go after that. Happy to help or whatever, but maybe look into how that runs tangentially to what we're trying to do with even maybe a possible goal for this year. Uh an update for Recreation Special Service District. From what I understand, I don't know if you guys are going to cover this, but I'll just kind of give a brief summary. Uh, timeline wise, we're we're a little like behind where we would be as just a city, but that's intentional with what the countyy's doing and what we're trying to do. Um, we'd be approaching design phases and throwing that out at this point um in March. Uh, so I've sent out example resolutions to fellow council members of other cities inviting them to consider having the discussion of passing those resolutions. Um, so if you have connections to any council members in in the in the uh surrounding cities and you want to help do that or if you uh want to just introduce me, I' I'd love that. Um, that's all I got. Thank you.

»Thank you, Nathan. I wanted to promise the council that um there have been a couple of news articles on 12 West. One, I did not partake uh in an interview with a reporter. Um, the Herald Journal pulled anything that was in that article from what I said in the public record. Um, the Tribune article, I told the reporter I was very, very hesitant to have an interview because this is old news to the council. This is a a done deal, a decided decided thing. and um anything that I had to say I've already said in the public record and he could refer to that. Turns out he didn't have he he didn't quote he he he didn't bring my opinion. Well, I don't know. I you know what he quoted? He said, "We thought we were doing the right thing." And so I'll I'll stand by that for the council. We always think we're doing the right thing. Just deciding what is the right thing. But I promise um um it seems like forever ago that we made that decision and then I look at 2025 and that seems like last week, right? So, um, we've moved on and I appreciate the council's effort on that and I'm I'm certainly not reliving it and I hope you don't get the idea that I'm reliving that uh from anything you read in those articles and I encourage you to read them and give me feedback if if you want. Okay. Um the

»the uh coordination with other cities, yeah, is a big deal. So, um I'll I'll spill the beans a little bit. We we met with Providence in the snowstorm. We were inside during the snowstorm. I didn't think I was going to get out of the Providence parking lot with my Intrepid. Uh, we sat down for a meeting and didn't look up for 4 hours talking about I'm not even sure I can list it all, but ways that we might define the proper scale of government and how we might coordinate with Providence. And they weren't pushing us. It's just things we had to talk about. Fire, library, recreation. Uh huh.

»Waste.

»No, they don't want to carry our trash.

»Did you guys talk about

»waste water?

»Oh,

»waste water,

»but not not trash collection.

»They're they're not interested in our collector.

»It was a short discussion.

»Got it.

»Right. Did I miss any?

»Those are the big ones.

»Yeah, those are the big ones.

»Talk about 165.

»Uh, no. That's a good one to talk about with them. I guess we're waiting for the county to try to help us do a study there. We did spend a lot of time talking about how we all work with the county and work with one another as municipalities. Did I say fire? Fire was huge. Yeah. Okay. And then we were going to have a meeting, a regularly scheduled meeting with uh Hyram on a reoccurring basis was going to be tomorrow, but we're not. So we'll we'll have to pick that up with Hyram. We changed their mind. Um that's all I want to talk about. Justin,

»uh, just real quick, Stephen, uh, referenced the House Bill 501. It's amazing how much energy that sucked out of me the last couple weeks, and it was one bill out of 950ish that they're talking about right now. Like, I just blows my mind. Um, so that's been a big one. And just to give you a quick recap, it started out the state is pushing everyone to raise their rates to essentially try to pay as much of your own way as you can before you come to the state for help by implementing a percentage of the median adjusted gross income. They they they want you to be 1.5% on your rate for both water and for wastewater to be able to come to them. So that is substantially more than we pay now. So the original language came out saying everybody or anybody that wanted money from the state needed to do that but but by 2031 everyone in the state needed to be there at their water rate. That quickly got squashed. That's gone now. But the requirement did remain for getting money from the state. Now there in my opinion needs to be further definition of that. Is that grant or is that loan? Because if you're talking about grant money that's already we've been doing that at least in the drinking water board that I'm I sit on. We've been doing that for ever. Um in fact we've been doing 1.75. That makes sense. If you're going to come to the state for free money, you should be p spending a certain percentage of your own money. The loan is a little bit different. you know that we're that I think needs worked on and I need someone smarter than me to run the calculations to say if nibbly's got a 2.5 times our rate to go to the state for a loan is it cheaper just to go to Zans's bank and have a lower monthly rate and if that happens what does that happen to the long-term viability of the revolving fund that the state is supposed to be loaning money and getting return interest on to continue these projects so anyway uh that one sucked a lot of my time a lot of my effort. It'll be interesting to see where it goes. Coincidentally, the shadow sponsor who was really running the bill is your representative Casey Snyder in the House. There's got another name on it. I can't I can't remember the representative's name, but Casey's the one pushing it. Also, interesting, your senator is the Senate sponsor, Mr. Sandal. So, uh that's a big one. Other than that one, most of the talk right now is on property tax. I just saw an email a minute ago that there there were they were pushing for a cap on the percentage raise. I think that is going to be held in committee and will not happen. So I think a lot of people are pretty happy about that. Um so those have really been the two big ones. There's some other property tax ones and truth and taxation ones that are going on but they're I think smaller compared to those two bills. So, the water bill, 3% of area median income, call it 80,000 or I'll be conservative and call it 80,000 instead of 100. It depends on who's who's using the data. Uh it's an increase in water rate of $2,400 for Nibi Nibi resident and our median property tax is about $450 a year. So it's a 6x increase for water fees over what we collect in property taxes. So, this all stems from a couple years ago, the legislature initiator requested a study to be done by Zans's Bank and they went out to everybody and they said, "Okay, tell us every project you're going to need in the next 40 years." And so, everybody just went because they thought in the back there and everybody knew that if they don't get their name of their project on this list, they're never going to be able to go to the state for money. So, everybody just threw out this huge amount. Plus, they don't know when it's going to be, so they throw out this huge number. In my opinion, I think the number's high, but but the study indicated that a bunch of that would be covered if everybody charged this rate. So, they're trying to get you to charge what they feel is the appropriate rate to relieve the stress on them of finding free money or even loan money. But rest assured, even when that happens, the Zion Bank still has a giant gap of billions that needs to be invested in the water infrastructure fund. So, the next thing the state will go after is an actual fee of some kind to go into this fund to help fund projects across the state. And then, so that's coming. And that's a bigger fund than just drinking water or waste water. It's storm water, irrigation, uh I mean anything that touches water is supposed to be managed and directed under this one. It's called the UHIP, the Utah Water Infrastructure Plan. So, I don't know if any of that makes sense or if you care much about it, but there's definitely changes coming in how the state manages and pushes and tries to get people to pay for water projects. What's the bill number?

»501. So there is a substitution. We are expecting another substitution any minute. And that is pretty much all I worked on since I saw you guys last. So um as far as anything else, uh mayor covered all of our meetings with uh with other towns and other municipalities. Big shout out to staff. You saw those emails I sent today. Appreciate uh any support you can offer. staff does an amazing job for us. So, appreciate them. And that is all I have.

»Thanks, Tom.

»Yes. So, this week we received uh four proposals to update our transportation master plan. So, I'll be sending out emails next week to assemble the steering committee. Miss uh Council Member Man, you're on that. We also have a planning commissioner and a bunch of staff members. So, we'll go through those. I I'll uh most likely create a team's folders, put these uh proposals in there so they can or I can print them off, whatever your preference is. Um hoping to get a selection made and bring it back to city council for approval to enter into a contract with our selection. So the uh the other one is I need your help uh with the Nibbly Meadows Park. So, I met with the parks and recck committee a couple weeks ago, went through a bunch of ideas on what we did. We we looked at the master plan, the parks master plan, and looked the concepts that were in there. And then the landscape architect and environmental planning group from USU's last semester, they did an evaluation, and there's six teams formed and they made a whole bunch of presentations and some suggested layouts and things. So, collectively, what I plan to do is just I'd like to set up like a workshop with council and maybe planning commissioner and some and some people from the parks and recck committee and just give direction to staff on what we want, what we want to budget so I can go out and get a a request for proposal for a design, get a design this year in time to apply for grants next year and maybe construct that part, try to leverage some of our We'll go over our land or our our long range planning budget. There's I don't know $3 million or something in that. But council, you'll have to tell us what to do and then we can reverse engineer and make sure we get the right design that's going to fit our budget. So, I'm hoping to do this the week of March 2nd through the 5th. If you could check your calendars really really quick, see if there's a preferred afternoon. We don't have to do it at night. We can we can do it late afternoon. Whatever works for this group if if there's a preference. So I'm looking for input now. I'd like to get that scheduled as soon as possible. So any any preferred day? Let's start at that. Second, third, fourth, or fifth?

»Fourth or fifth would be ideal.

»Fourth or fifth. Does that work for everybody else? Okay. Um, is there a preferred time afternoon? Would I mean after five? Do we want to do it like at 3:00 in the afternoon? We want to do it early morning. I I'm an early riser. I'm available.

»I don't have another job. So, anytime works for me, so

»is there a preference with any of the other group that So, in order to do this, if we have more than three, it'll have to be it'll be a quorum and we'll have to advertise that as a public meeting. So, I'll try to make sure we only have one or two planning commissioners, so it won't be a joint meeting, but we'll get that advertised in time to have this meeting in case there's more than two um two council members that show up. So,

»I think you have time probably to get a commitment from council members as to whether you'll have three or not.

»Okay.

»Right. I mean, you guys can make your point up. So, I have the fourth or the fifth the preferred time.

»Second of March, right?

»Yeah. I I have the wrong phone so I won't I don't know. I'll have to let you know.

»Anybody else have any input or preference?

»If you want me I'm good in the morning on either of those days, not as good in the evening on Wednesday, but okay in the evening on Thursday. Actually, you can look at my calendar if you want.

»Okay. Thanks. Anybody else want to participate? Give guidance.

»I would love to.

»Okay.

»Yeah.

»So, check your calendars based on the limited input. I have the 5th after five o'clock sounds like.

»Yeah, I can do that.

»Yeah,

»sure. Easy.

»Thanks so much. That's all I had. Any questions, comments, concerns, or complaints for me? um staff had its first quarter wellness meeting on Wednesday. The plan was to have a representative from URS come down and present to us about some new um investment options through the retirement program, but she could not make it through Sardine Canyon. So, staff pulled it together a presentation about 45 minutes and we were able to have a great discussion. um council is always invited to those and we love to see you there and it's a great time to get together with staff and enjoy some lunch and so I'll continue to invite you guys to those uh wellness meetings. Um the Utah League of Cities and Towns Conference, a reminder, it's April 22nd through the 24th in St. George. Thank you, Garrett, for your RSVP. Um, I'm going to give the council a deadline of the next council meeting, March 12th, to give me your your decision on that. Um, after March 18th, the price goes up by $80. So, to be fiscally responsible, we're going to give you a deadline of March 12th to let us know if you're going. Um Chad put this sheet on all of your seats with all of the recreation events that'll be happening in 2026 and he just asked you to look at those and consider them and maybe set aside some time. He particularly said during heritage days to to participate in. Um but he did a great job of having pretty much the whole year lined out and there for you to put on your calendars. That's all I have. Thank you, Cheryl. Any other things to add to reports? If there's Oh, Steve, I'm sorry. Please come up to the mic.

»Thank you.

»Uh, yeah, we do look at them every fall,

»but the map is definitely outdated, but those are are still our priorities. and yesterday's storm. Reading the Facebook post, you know, it seemed like there was a little concern that some of them collected roads weren't being touched. Our focus is our priority roads in a storm like that yesterday. So, at 2:00 we did all gang up and start cleaning, you know. So, at that time, it does take us time to get through the city. So by about six o'clock last night, I believe every road had been hit and pretty well opened up. Um, so as far as that went, uh, snowb blowing, people still throwing their snow in the roads, a big challenge. I don't know what we can do to help that. I think we're going to, you know, try and get as much verbiage out there as we can to help eliminate this. We had one very very upset guy um told us to stay out of his off of his street. Um unfortunately I said no we're we're going to continue to plow the road. So um there were some very very some bad words said to us you know through the individual called me and asked me what to do and I just said roll your window up and plow his road. You know it's a public road and we got to do it. So, um, other than that, it was a big storm. We got it. And, um, I don't know if you seen any white lines on, uh, Tuesday. We got a little salt brine system put together, a little homemade jobber to give it a whirl. And so, we did 32, 12, 26, 2450, 250. Um, of course, we didn't get to see how it worked out because we got a little bit of rain uh, Wednesday morning. So, but we'll continue to work with it and I'm pretty excited to see how what it does for us. So,

»what are they?

»It's a salt brine. So, they're little white lines. I don't know if you've seen them on the road. You've seen them in front of your home if you

»It's just a

»like five lines. Yeah.

»Okay. My daughter was asking me what those were and I did not know. I That's what I guessed. I was like, I think it's something for the ice, but

»yeah. So, we've never done it and I've always wanted to try it. So, we you guys will have to come take a look. I do have videos of this little 275galon uh containers that we built two of them and put a pump on. It's pretty unique.

»Cool.

»It's kind of redneck, but it works. Now we have a 275gallon container that we spray it out of. So yeah, we're we'll get there though. But other than that, I think that's it. So thanks for your guys support on the storm. I know it was a big one. People were upset. A lot of heavy snow, but my driveway still looks like crap. I haven't got to plow mine yet, so we'll get it tomorrow.

»Thanks, Steve.

»Uh, objection to abjourning. Those are always hard for me to say, maybe because I'm tired. Seeing none, we're ajourned. Thank you, council. Thanks, Steph. Thank you, Greg, for putting our tears