Nibley City Planning Commission

Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a committee and and reactive whatever people bring up. It's not like, hey. Here's our priorities. Same thing with the open space bond. Yeah.

And, Levi, can you jump over to that story map? Oh, actually, one one item here. So we might have been working on story map, and we expect to have a final draft in November. So here in That's a good one. Move and a half.

Then we might have to jump over that story map. That'd be great. I don't know if it'll let me. I think you have to do it. I told you I'd I'd have to. So push escape because of the keyboard thing. Let's see. Sorry about that.

Oh, great. Okay.

So now try it. Yeah. Let's see this. Okay. Yeah. That house is working too. Sweet. Okay. Alright. So we've developed this website. Here we go. This is a summary of the analysis of this point with some different kind of tasks that break the project down in different groups. And, again, this is made... This is mainly just a a summary of all of our findings. We will have that group where it will contain all of our findings, all the information, and all the nitty gritty, but we we hope to get to kind of the meat of the project here at this website, and this will live on after the project status will... For reference. So introduction here is kind of what is a a transportation master plan. So it's a long range guide for investments and improvements throughout community. So as mainly grows, new development, obviously, population is going to increase, and this will place demands on the roadway network, active transportation network, and transit system. Our goal is to plan for that to create a long term plan that can accommodate that growth. So the vision we've kind of set as a group for this project was the following. Nibley City supports an efficient connected transportation system that prioritizes safety, encourages walking and bicycling, maintains efficient traffic along major streets. A well connected trail network critical critical movement of The Middle East overall transportation system. So that vision has has guided the plan up to this point then. We've developed a set of goals here to accomplish this vision. Five total. Let's see. So kind of... Yeah. I might as well read through it. Here we go. So goal number one was improving mobility and accessibility by ensuring volume users can travel safely and efficiently with equitable access to connected and complete transportation network. Goal two, promoting multi terminal transportation through the development of infrastructure that supports walking, biking, and transit, and that provides viable alternatives to automobile travel. Our goal three is to improve transportation safety by reducing traffic related injuries and fatalities through safer street designs, safety and complete alternatives to automotive, automotive travel, improved pedestrian crossings, and other appropriate safety measures. Four, supporting economic vitality by improving access to jobs, goods, movements, industrial areas, and business districts to an efficient transportation system. And five, supporting promoting safe routes to school by increasing the number of students walking and biking to school through improved sidewalk crossing, trail connectivity, and traffic calming measures in your schools. Those are kind of main five... Or five main goals there to accomplish that vision. As a part of the transportation master plan, we look very closely at demographics. We do some in-depth forecasting based on an expected number of households in employment in the area. And we expect by 2050, population will roughly double from... It is now about 9,000... A little more 9,000 to about... A little more of eighteen thousand twenty fifteen. Alright. So we'll jump over to the public involve... Involvement, get a summary here of findings from our Midway Heritage Days survey. We've had an online survey open as well, so we'll talk through some of those comments we received, and then we will be having the public open houses also. First off, we'll jump right into the visual survey summary. So residents here in Nibley and and the attending... Attendees of the Nibley Heritage Days were asked to vote on... Student here. Obviously, it's it's smaller. But we're asked to vote in a move to Niddly Heritage Days. We had about 200 people participate in the exercise. We've had kinda see here. We had some boards up with some kind of visual preference surveys. So images of different treatments, and we had folks vote on these treatments, placing, you know, a dot on their preferred transportation treatment. We'll kind of go through those in a little more detail, see what they have voted on. But our first question he asked was, which transportation network do you prefer, option a or option b? And option a maximizes vehicle capacity and speed. You know, we show 40 miles an hour on that cross section, kind of wider roads. And then we have wide arterial streets and more cul de sacs. So So there'd be higher speeds, less opportunities for ped... Pedestrians, bicyclists, less neighborhood cut through traffic, increased infrastructure costs, and higher... Some more severe crashes with those higher speed. We then have this option to be on another board. Right? 25 miles an hour. More opportunities for active transportation. You know, we have a path on the side with some bicyclists, and this would, you know, result in following lower speeds, more opportunities for pedestrian by service, better emergency response times, decreased infrastructure costs, and lower risk for more severe crashes. And this would be more of a fully grid network. And of those who participated, this is about how it worked out. So majority of folks voted here for option b with balanced mobility, about 75%,

which is interesting.

We then asked them, you know, which intersection treatment do you prefer? You know, around... Seemingly roundabouts, maybe roundabouts, raised intersections, roundabout are eight intersection by process. And here's how people voted. So overwhelmingly, people were in favor of roundabouts. A lot of those, you know, as well in round about heart, as well seen, very popular. For our pedestrian crossings, we looked at, you know, pedestrian safety and balance, race crossings, race crosswalks, flashing beacons, curb extensions, pedestrian crossing are... Folks really like the art and then race crosswalk. I came in second here with some flashing beacons. So walking and biking. We had showed different bicycle, you know, facilities, maybe. I guess, some sidewalk too, but we saw folks voted here on the sun. Folks, the majority voted for paved paths, full sidewalk, and buffer bike lanes with some votes on two way traffic track as well. And then we then gave some options for speed management. We looked at speed tables and road and narrowing, rated speed signs, such gains, occurs in the road, and native track circles. And here's how folks voted. Probably radar speed signs seem to be the most popular. With speed cables. Oh, yes. Kids, you know, come by, kind of put a stick around whatever one they they... Whatever mode they used to get to school. And majority, their parents drove them. Probably between, you know, walking and biking, you know, you had about 50% who do that. So so our results there. Okay. And then throughout this time as well, we distributed flyers for this at that in the heritage days. But we've had an open survey where folks could provide feedback and select a location on an online map and provide feedback. Let me see the exact question we asked. So we asked... We gave folks an opportunity to select the location, describe the issue or opportunity at this location. Any suggestions or ideas for improvement? Many new comments focused on pedestrian bike safety, speed reduction, and roadway maintenance. And we'll we'll summarize those results in the in the document, and all the results can be found both here and in the appendix. But this story map... And this will be, again, here for you guys to use as well, but you can actually zoom around and click and see what all these comments say from the folks. So I'm gonna read through those. But... Okay. Awesome. Well, let's click through all those today. Okay. So so diving a little more into kind of the analysis portion of the transportation master plan, We are gonna talk through kind of the future roadway network. And so roadway... When you're putting... Or when you're planning for a roadway network, you're I plan roads using functional classifications based on how the roadway is going to be used. So with increased mobility, typically, you have a decrease in access. Right? Alabama and SR 165 Main Street, you got higher speeds, you know, maybe higher mobility moving people through. There's fewer accesses, you know, to side streets throughout. But as soon as you get into the neighborhood roads, right, you've got driveways every however many 100... 200 feet. So you've got slower speeds but more accesses. And so those general classifications fall into arterial roads, collector roads, and local roads. That's kind of the definition there of those of those terms. See all that here, you know, to carry more people, collectors, get people from the arterials down to their local roads and then into their to their houses or residences. So looking here at future road lane network, we'll just open up this map real quick while I see. Let me go through actually cross sections first. That might be the easiest here, but... So we've got our feature network here. Let me get our legend. So our colors, we've got our blue, our our principal arterials. Red, our minor arterials, green major collectors, and yellow minor collectors. And then our gray, if you zoom in, you'll see our our locals... Local roads here. And then we have different intersection treatments as well. Okay. So let's start with our minor arterials. So that's these in red here. And the plan... Oh, sorry. Let's start principal arterials, obviously, first. So US 89, started 165. These are u dot roads. So we don't have cross sections. They've developed for those. They vary. They're kind of out of control of the city's hands. So we focus more on the city controlled roads or minor arterials. Let me zoom in. We have here some. About 3200 South, we consider minor arterial. Maybe we have some future roadways and land throughout as well. So it's a section 2600 South. And for those minor arterials... So here is the cross section that is recommended for those 100 feet right away. We've got three lanes trap... Of traffic of travel. Two... Two travel lanes and then one turning lane, center turning lane, and then seven feet of parking in both sides. And of our defaults, you'll see here at the bottom, it's been a small for a lot of you guys. But this says side treatment varies per city plan. So we'll actually compare this when when our way goes get built with the the line work on the active transportation plan, and it will determine if if there's any variation from the default site treatment here, such as bike lanes, paths, pedestrian paths. And if they are bike lanes, what kind of bike lanes? Buffered bike lanes, or are they separated two ways, cycle track, or PM on both west? Good deal. Okay. And then we developed section specific for 3,200 because we see this as a very, important East West corridor through town. And it's that same kind of 100 foot right away for the active transportation plan and has buffered bike lanes. So we've included those. And then we show kind of how that would interact with some pedestrian crossings here with pedestrian wreckage of that. But kind of a kind of a vision network here. And then we also included kind of some of these lamps and more urban. Land and place making with some wax or any baskets or things that could be done along the better 200 South. Okay. We'll jump on over here to major collector then. So major collectors here is what it looks like. So 12th West and eighth, ninth West here coming to the future. And then we have this future route kind of East West route on here, and then we are showing the annexation area again in the city. So the current boundary goes up to this dash line. The annexation area comes clear out here, so we're showing some that is just fronting 8991 in the future. Here's what those look like. Those are two two main roads, 80 feet of right way. And then we'd go a special cross section here for 12 West. And then something we'd actually like feedback from both sides is we're looking to recommend that we extend this cross section. Right? This would be... It kind of matches the existing cross section more or less, on what's currently built north of 13 meters south on the Northwest. And we're saying this should continue south because of the reduction speed that we've measured as a part of our data collection in this plan. And then also possibly including it on the major collector on 8 Or 9900 West South of 3200 South. So we'll be talking about that here with here

with

it. Okay. And then we can do our minor collectors, which are, again, two lane roads, but slightly smaller cross section, 66 feet. And by default, here we show parking in these mid block crossings. We will be recommending that these mid block precincts for for major mine collector every 600 feet. There needs to be a crossing opportunity on these collector roads. And on arterials... On her minor arterial 3200 South, for example, We use 800 feet and spacing for accessible pedestrian crossings. It's kind of a goal. Right? And then in addition to this, we are recommending that we include curb... What are called curb extensions at all future local and collector street intersections. This would essentially... At at the intersection, it would bold out the curb so that it shortens the pedestrian crossing distance and lowers vehicle speeds. So this makes it all around safer for cars, for pedestrians, for bicyclists, kind of a built in traffic calming treatment. Right. And we'll we'll revisit that in a bit. We have some maps, and then things will talk through. So there's those site treatments here. Again, that vary depending on what's in the active transportation plan for different sorts of treatments there.

Okay.

So another part of this, right, of the transportation master plan is we want to make sure that we are kind of fading out our projects. Right? Like, we're not just gonna go build out and build that whole future network tomorrow. Like, a lot of that is gonna come well over, you know, thirty, forty, fifty years. So how is that how is that going to look like? How is it going to affect travel patterns in the city over time? So we we calibrated the original travel demand model from the CMPO using local locally edited versions of their traffic analysis zones, which essentially is the population deployment. So we we we calibrated that for the different future trip planning years. And what we're going to be looking at on this, right, is level of service is kind of a key term to kinda keep in mind. So we have these broken out essentially into kind of three groups or categories. Level of service a through c is, you know, we have this labeled green, breezy, good From free flow down to kind of stable flows, kind of represents different congestion areas that you... You'll see. You know, these are terminology for, like, transportation planning. When you get down to level service d, you start getting unstable flow, which is acceptable, but, you know, you're you're in congestion, you know, the kind of the gower condition sometimes. You know, times that'll reach into unstable flow where it's really unacceptable. You have low speeds, considerable considerable delay in kind of volume and volume capacity. And then down to f, which is like traffic jam, you know, you're not going anywhere anytime soon. So low service e and f are the things you want to watch out for and really plan for. D is acceptable, but it's not ideal on the rest. Okay. So we looked at different years on our modeling here, and we'll start here with the existing conditions, establish this baseline here, zoom in here. So 2026, we show overall level of service a through c on all the roads in the city, including the highways. And these numbers here are vehicles in thousands per day. So here on 3200 South, we have about 6,000 to 5,000 per day. And then on highway, you know, I've got 23 to 30 on all those. So generally acceptable level of service there. Twenty thirty six conditions, we do two models. We do one before projects. So before... You know, let's just... Let's kinda see what happens if if if no runway projects are built, like, what what are the traffic conditions going to be like? And we show level of service c up here. Let me get my laptops. Well, service d up here on SR 165 where it kinda starts becoming unstable. And, again, this is ten years out. So we're looking for this resin. And, you know, with the expected growth that is going to occur here in Italy or likely to occur, these are... This is kind of the grid that we'd expect here in ten years or so, how our travel condition is going to be then. And we show that level of service d still remains on the highway. The dance is still green. So we have acceptable level service everywhere else. You can zoom in here again and kinda get some more details. Matt? Okay. So we looked at that here, and then we'll also look at our... At 2050, which kind of our... Is our... Kinda maximum horizon year year planning... For transportation planning. So we look at no build conditions. So in fact, if all the growth occurs that we're expecting and no roads get built, what's going to happen? We expect level service e conditions here on 8991. Looks like we're just over the threshold there. Right? We have 40,000 here and 41 here, so we're just over, acceptable threshold. And then up up here on the start of the '65, we also have some level service e. So, again, traffic congestion is expected for their own state highways. Overall, the city are looking okay. And then here's the roadway network or grid that we'd expect to be built out as part of development. And here are those conditions generally. So city roads, level service a through c. And then out on the highway, we just bumped down over that threshold without around eighty nine ninety one. We're at level service b. SR one sixty five continues to be a problem out there. So this helps inform kind of what what projects you needed to maintain level of service. Yeah. Let's see. Okay.

Good job.

Yeah. Kindly twenty four minutes through these. We're gonna give them a kind of a chance to to... I'm gonna talk through any of these projects here in a moment. But, again, from that model exercise, these are kind of the projects we'd expect over the next ten years. We have different, like, types from roundabouts to signals, and then different roadway projects. Right? We have new roadways and widening projects. Well, so that's kinda generally what we

would expect.

A lot of these, again, come from... Or not a lot of... Some of these come from hash NPO transportation master plans that's been integrated here as well. Remember roundabouts, new roads, and then, yeah, kind of some apps here with... And we should have these in in front of... From you guys as well, but we've got all the road and projects. Here, phase one through three, in groups of about ten years. So phase one, think through, like, the next ten years. Phase two, ten to twenty years. In phase three, between twenty to thirty years. It's roughly the Verizon's where we get there. So we'll begin to look at these here in just a second there. And And we're doing cost estimates for all these as well. This will inform our traffic impact. It is... It's part of our analysis here. Alright. So we also looked at safety as part of the project here. We've got crash data that we analyzed throughout the city. So last roughly five years, crash data. And these are mapped on different levels of severity ranging from fatal down to no injury here in blue. And we mainly looked... We we didn't include crashes here on 8991, I don't believe. In fact, in fact, we do have to there. So we misspoke that. We didn't believe this chunk out here. Obviously, it's kinda out of control of the city. So we looked at that. It's like one of the tally out here. And, again, they're... Kinda makes sense. Right? They're like, the crashes are congregated along corridors where there's higher traffic. Why is it expected? So kind of as we'd expect. And we looked and identified different patterns. And we looked, you know... We paid close attention, for example, to fatal and suspected serious injury crashes. So, So, obviously, we want to reduce the the occurrence of these, and we look for any groupings or trends in the data that indicate why they they are occurring here. And this informs our recommendations. Then we look at active transportation, grasses, crashes. So anybody walking or biking, you know, where where are those happening? Looks like you should have a handful here at the city, but where are those occurring? So we have one here and here. Both of us. Why are they occurring? How can we prevent that? To provide recommendations for those.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, handful of safety.

Okay. So I won't go through all these in detail, but a number of these are on Main Street. We recommend, you know, perhaps, because there are some roundabouts or other treatments here on the in the West, towards South, for example. And then a British school across from here on 3200 South. So that being pretty vital here. So... Yeah. Okay. So we made it through the story map here, kind of summary of the results up to this point. So now I have to get us... So I gotta get more PowerPoint here, but I'd like to jump into kind of some main... At top, there's some discussion points here on recommendations or privacy. And we're happy again to to hear your thoughts or opinions on this. But these are these are additional kind of recommendation policy that are coming from our analysis and discussion results from everything that showed up to this point. Let's see if that Yeah. Here's

here.

So starting with top gear. So roundabouts proved to be popular. Right? For neighborhood heritage days, visual summary that we had. So we're recommending that those be the preferred intersection control treatment in the city. As you can see here on on the rapid on our feature on the feature of our map, we recommend roundabouts at almost all major intersections. And then it's part of the size of those roundabouts to context. Right? Like, it gives many roundabouts, for example, at lower speed, lower volume rooms. So they don't always have to be, you know, big, expensive, remote routes that... At least the best thing to do. Again, using the active transportation plan, we'll also, like, side treatments on new roadways, so we'd be more to keep that up to date. And then we had idea where it's coordinating with Connect Transit on sort of expansion and improving existing facilities. We recommend adopting a set of access management standards, and we'll, hopefully, build that into the street design standards update for, we're taking on with the city as well as part of this prioritizing connectivity. This will all perform an inter... Interconnected road, bikeway, and walkway network that runs to multiple routes of travel. And we need this sign that I... We have a picture of up here. This is something that South Shore does on all their suburbs. So when people move in and, you know, they don't think they're moving into the cul de sac. You know, they're gonna... Maybe one day, this road might eventually crunch through, making a lot of times for rent,

you know, some kickback. But...

So we're we're incorporating that into the... It's a recommendation. And, again, track... Some traffic home information we're including. We've talked about a few of these, but overall, I'm I'm... What we're recommending here is the safer street design, be the t multiple for achieving speed compliance. And the main strategies on New Roads is our... Those intersection holdouts you talked about on all new collections and local intersections. Mid block, holdouts incorporated in the current sections as well. And then considering that extension of the 12 Midwest section south of there and possibly a fish elsewhere, reducing asphalt width and limiting right turn lanes. Oops. Our our main recommendations there. And then for existing roads, implementing low speed radio program, mid block busings, finishing your feature island, about 300 resistance details. And then when they write your lines and go and give me features and implementing a traffic on the program where it means strategies there. Okay. Great. So at this point, we'd like to, if you don't mind, look here at this map for those who do a cramp loop or data that will appear at screen. But we we could look here at the future functional class. We have a few areas, Mark, that we'd like to kinda talk through and get your feedback and opinions on. Then, of course, if anything else comes to mind, please share with us that. So, again, just as a reminder, the principal, arterials are essentially five lane roads, minor arterials, three agent collectors, two, minor collector, two main roads, millables

across two lane roads. Okay.

So our first location is up here. I have that kind of circled in red. There it worked. This is a connection here in the way Mark Way. Curtis steps out of that intersection, you know, from the from the east end on the south end. So making that connection there, we wanna get you guys feedback. Matt?

That's that's just West of Stonebridge Subdivision and over by Aloof in that area. Yeah.

So, Kyle, you're essentially recommending where we're talking about 19,

the platform, we have all the way through to Malouf to the. Right. Yeah.

And what's the question on the table? So the question on the table is, overall, like, do you agree with that proposed connection? I believe this has been proposed in previous transportation master plan as well.

And it was, yeah, and it was removed. So it is kinda So It's kinda gone back and forth. But... Yeah. Yeah. So... And where do you stand on that?

So... Yes. I was looking for you to go. I'm like,

probably won't have the same minute.

You go first. We're a little biased. We... I mean, I guess...

I mean, obviously, it was taken off for a reason. And, obviously, I... I'll be honest. I know that's funny. What advantage should we really gain if we we connected? I guess, is a real question. Yeah. That's a great question.

So the advantage we gain is in connectivity. Right? If we look here in the center of Biddly, you'd have two schools that are that are in there. And so any way we can improve connectivity to and from the different highways, The more traffic it takes off of adjacent roads, and it just spreads it out. And so it doesn't concentrate in one location, but instead spreads it out. And just in in in travel overall. Right? You have improved emergency response times throughout city and British travel times for other folks.

Those those are kind of the main bed.

Well, I guess since nobody's really talking, I'll just take a long time. I mean, what was the rationale for taking it off if we took it off? Was it the same statement that you kinda brought up? What's the mood of benefit for Randy or Larry? That wasn't you.

I was I was... We canceled at the time, but that was moved so I can get ready to address that. The proposal,

technically, were a lot

for the land use at the time was for a team warehouse. And so there was definitely concern from Meet with You and also from Stonebridge Stonebridge, excuse me, about truck traffic trailer truck... 18 wheeler traffic to their neighborhoods getting to that warehouse. Since then, the the land use has changed, and so maybe that's why it's still a question and what's filed... How's filed coming today. But it was it was changed because of concern for traffic to neighborhoods and specifically as our... We're mainly there too. Let me know. Specifically about to neighborhoods to use the clearance.

Yeah. I wanna speak to that. I mean, that was the big concern that the the mayor and the council was wonderful to work with and and others to help us. They didn't have the... Her big concern at Stonebridge was we didn't want a big truck and tractor going to the neighborhoods, and we just made common sense. If they needed to have main roads, and our fear was that that opened up, then we... You know, look at trucks stoke through them and basically, they just can't see in small neighborhoods. And so if that could open the possibility that we have somebody's going to that neighborhood, then it would... I'd be a 100% against that naturally.

I I don't disagree with that.

There's there's maybe one more thing to consider.

Back when we did not complete that road, we may have violated fire code. So we ought to talk to fire marshal about ingress from how many residential units can be served by a single. And I think it's 30 on the fire marshal. That's something that would be, you know, the consideration. You're likely more than 30

residential units in Stonebridge. Is that correct? There's 69 that are currently. I guess that's I see that. And I do think need to... Is probably... We need to make sure that there's other options. I do agree with that. But I do wanna make sure that we don't have big traffic going to that resource neighborhood. And there's some serious considerations there. So I don't think I don't think... I I kinda wanna be a person opposed if if if we can make that so that it doesn't involve trucking. That makes sense. Justin? Yeah. If trucking is the only issue, 3,200 south has it going to JD Swin, and the 8 West has it going to load and coach. The big trucks going in and out of there on a regular basis. So I guess the difference, though, would be... Assuming it's not happening anymore. I guess the difference is the 3200 South, even 1200

are not residential street. That'd be the difference. Right? I mean, 3200, we consider that one minor actuarial or principal actuarial.

I was 3200.

Minor. Minor actuarial. So, I mean, there is a difference between that and a in a southern neighborhood.

But a question about... Is also a minor collector. And so

Mhmm. Yeah. If I may real quick, just not to

disagree at that point, but just to point out that

there's a lot of other stuff going on. Right now, that currently doesn't exist. The the front end road doesn't exist with accesses out of the highway. So maybe this is a phase thing where some... That connection maybe isn't made as some of this other stuff is is done. But if you notice there's a lot of other stuff there that currently doesn't really exist that would impact the the lease of the truck track. I can't say it would eliminate it, but certainly would provide at least three or four other options for large vehicles and any vehicle really to get out of that area. So just pointing that out that there's there's a lot going on just that exact intersection.

Justin, to that point that... When our material that you talked about that that connector on the side, I mean, essentially, that's going through people's homes, property, and farms. At what point are... Do we already have that figured out with the landowners? Or is this just proposed,

like, master, like, eventually, hopefully, we can buy that? Yeah. All of this... Most of this is just proposed that if we have willing property and owners and depending on how it all happens, it works. None of it's guaranteed in any way, shape, or form. So we have... And and this kinda goes through a lot of others too, but I need to be... To have anticipation of in the in the domain one of those options?

Or is... Obviously, this is all hype, but I'm just curious what our thoughts are.

It might help. And this this is a bit of a political question. I'd love to cancel if you got this well. And with the domain domain is an option, but it's not an option that Midway City has used very often. In fact, the only time I've seen Midway City go through a given domain was to...

Just recently do a... To complete a roundabout

at 2600 South And 12 West. So our role... The landowners were on board with the exact one, and so we went through the process to force the sale. I I don't think we actually got to eminent domain. We didn't... We arbitrated it before it became

eminent domain lawsuit.

The the least attractive choice... I'll see if... Hence if you go yes or no. Least attractive choice is in domain. The most attractive choice is built by developers as they develop piece of property. We can ask for them to build what is in context with their proposal. And so that's that's that's the best way to get done. It doesn't doesn't put a tax on on midway citizens to build that. And then there are other funding mess... Magnets too. 12 West was heavily funded by CMPL plan through the council of governments with the local... Local local option sales tax 2007. So there's other ways to fund it, but I think that the best way is probably through development if you can wait for it, build a piece of the rate at a time, and sometimes they don't all connect at the same time for a while. Yeah. So I I I.

No. No..

Is it is it... Is it planning concept idea? Let me explain.

I I I need to have my experience with traffic a little bit, but I don't know if you want. Sure. And then the most of July, it's fine. Yeah. It is. It's really hard to close a public road to a specific anytime. It's it's a challenge. People that drive trucks pay road taxes just like people that don't. People that drive other vehicles. So it's it's hard to say no traffic unless there's a physical limitation Mhmm. On that road. 1500 West right now is posted with no truck traffic, but that's because the road is in such disrepair. It's not in the leak, but What do you mean to to... Yeah....

Not incorporated by the account.

But you you pretty much have to have a physical limitation of the probate. Now you can, Allen, Both things into roads that make it uncomfortable for troubles to pass through there and encourage trust to find a better way to get to their destination instead of I don't know. Terminate around, like, one sketch. So those design elements could be incorporated to I'm I'm looking real good. That. I'm asking. Yeah.

And when we looked in those curve extensions, we showed kind of an image of that. This would be an example intersection where that would take. Yeah. It's right. It's this Collector Road Collector Road. So right where that north south intersects to the east west, You'd have a small intersection. Right? 22 feet of east fall to let to let folks pass. So we'd feel very uncomfortable. And we can, I mean, we can also create? Move the city, create a a truck route map, you know, for for new, you know, commercial use of the the rolling on trucks. It doesn't include, you know, those sorts those sorts of reps to name with us. Yes.

So the feedback from this row is

I work as a minor collector. I just don't know... I just... We don't know anything depending on what's... If it will say that. Right? I mean, 15 over the West has a major stability over the years. I've connected through the of needing to be with a major kilometer. So I think as to finding it as a monument helps, you guys are talking about. But the question I can ask is

as we did the planning, we talked a little about

the service, the roads. We talked about safety. We talked about solar arrays, etcetera. In a minute, I hope you have those civil security and etcetera. A a transportation in certain lands main goal, objective as stated here is kinds of transportation, not necessarily just to keep possible levels of service

in with.

Yeah. I mean, the only concern is if we didn't...

We're only being there and if we consider it being something because it would be a secondary use of place. And it's sort of in both of the 12 place through residential neighborhoods, which would be a bigger problem. So

Yeah. That's a good point.

I'll think if if I get back a bullet, when you were speaking about the the master plans, from this survey Yeah. What was the sample size on that survey? Looks like it was only about a 120, 130 people. Is that correct?

Yeah. So then on the You were going through earlier in the case, or is that, like, the open comment? The survey. The survey. Survey. Yeah. So that was that was about a 130, 150 people. So a 150 people per 79,000

residents. Yeah. So Not a good sample size. Yeah. I mean... Yeah.

Anyway, we Well, I actually think on this side, we have, like, 200.

Oh, so so the sample size is 200 ton. The 130 that the thing represented? Yeah. So Your numbers were about 120 and some of those 130 on others. So I'm just trying to understand. Oh, right. Is the survey still open, or did we close that?

So that was that was not... So that was a visual preference exercise at the event.

Okay. So that was the visual. Now the survey is 200, but that's the online survey.

We did... We... The only online survey that we had was the open comment map where folks can leave leave a comment. The other feedback came from the end.

Right. Yeah. Maybe if I could just add to that. See, it wasn't a it wasn't a traditional survey where, you know, we asked, basically, polled people, asked asked them questions. Do you like this? Do you like that? It was it was just an an exercise for people, basically, to comment and and bring things to our attention. Right? So kind of a different type of exercise where, hey. There's an issue here. There's a there's a safety problem here where it could be looked at further. So if that if that Is it something else? The final and the city... The swells like survey? Yeah. We did we did do a survey for the general plan. Yeah. But that... Yeah. That was last year.

Yeah.

How do you... It it's incumbent to us to see again for.

But we we see that input

can go in a couple of different ways. I I have less of a problem with maybe sample size in in terms of self selection bias as as we as we general plan, heritage days, visual response, response to a visual. I mean, all... People... The the... We we build bias into that data. And so I think we would hit up ahead. I don't think... Unless we go out and hire someone to to do a random sample survey and talk to me about uncertainty and levels of error, then we have to consider citizen responses very seriously because those are citizen responses, but we don't think... I I don't think we we treat them scientifically as a statistical representation of the city.

Is that fair? That's fair. Okay.

Alright. And then we'll be mad on this issue, or we will definitely, you know, keep that in mind as we're we're tailoring that recommendation here for that connection. So, Nick, yes. So the next topic we wanna get some feedback on was this road here. So this is

south of 3200

South. It would be a new proposed road at approximate, I guess, a 150 west, the mix standing down from 3200 South. And what I have up here is from the general plan future land use map showing that most of this area... So, again, I'll just... Instead of here. That's right. I guess I have the laser pointer. I'm always in there. We got a road coming in, essentially, roughly right down through here. And we'd show this, you know, as a possible connection that could be made to improve connectivity. It could kinda go either way, but this would, I think, you know, obviously, it goes through existing homes now, and we go through the back of of other homes. So I guess we're leaning towards taking this one out of the plan and just wanted to get some feedback there from you guys. You think it's important to improve connectivity in this area based on the future land use or not? Yes. You guys are gonna invite me to your next meeting. 100. But we got a 100 west. I

think the the North

as far as what this 31 here. So is that part of this discussion,

or is that gonna be Basically, 3,200

and so.

So I don't think we have any issue in connection. Again, internally, when there's a steering committee, we're leaving for stating it out, the plan, and so I just wanted to confirm that with you guys.

I would say going to new people's backyards, and they're all in there to establish the.

Yeah. I would probably... You know? It would it would all have to be essentially redeveloped and over time take place. And so I think it's just too ambitious. So... But... Yeah. Yeah. Who does this have changes to our streets?

We

can do a school proposals. This is it or this this proposal guide the decisions for that.

This is basically... Yeah.

I can take that. Yeah. No. This is it.

Yeah. I mean, this is what... This is the map we would use. This would replace our our current map Okay. Essentially. So So develop... Developer comes in. There's a there's a master plan road. We've done... Incorporates that somehow. Yeah.

Little late on the backside. So I think it's a machine and build group implications

of that. When you take off, you cannot do something. Somebody wants to come in and do something

would be able to do that thing, whether it's still school, residential, commercial, etcetera. So there are indications of not advocating for this. I'm just saying again. Occasionally, we're removing something from this plan. We we can't ask her that to have it. They can't they can't have those conversations as much as having it on there even if she never built it. It's something to figure out. Yeah. Okay. Stand up.

Yeah. You can tell me. And on on this one, I I kinda weighed in on this one and and during steering committee discussion, and I think we could get bits and pieces of it. I think the rest of it, the city would somehow have to spearhead, and I just don't know if that would be much of a priority in an area like this. It's planned for residential, but... So anywhere. I like I like the improved connectivity, but there's just too much there in my mind to make it very easy. Too much already developed that.

I I like the spirit of it. I think it's like

anytime you need to help people, you get everything from the highway.

Yeah. I I agree. It seems like with what's already in place, it's already through... Would be a pretty

low density rating rates. We have to detach

Yeah. Use. Right? But I do like the idea Yeah. In terms of, you know, we have access issues from that new way, things like that. Exit. Yeah. Thanks. K. We will then do that with Brandon. Okay. So the next item is... So this major collector that we have going east west in town. I'm easily... So currently, we have a plan. So what we're looking at here is essentially connecting two future signals. So this would be a future signal on 165. And then the county in NDM were running this signal out here. This location is... Has not been determined specifically, but it will be somewhere in this area. It might be further down highway or bigger further further up this way. So that's kind of in flux. We wouldn't put the current plans just on the NPO right now on your transmission master plan signal here. There's an existing signal here at 3200 South. Essentially, what we're saying in the future, we're meeting unit signal spacing standards. There could be a signal right here. It's a mile away. So the mile spacing is with their... Is their standard there. It's kind of obviously getting access to, you know, but what we wanted from you guys is would you rather... Because this is our major collective one. We want to connect to these two major signals with, like, a... And we're kind of robust. So it's a major collector versus minor collector. Do we want this probe, this major collector to go exactly east west and move that signal further down along the highway, the 8991, or keep it where it is where we kinda have this thing coming up here. And, again, it's kinda hard to say because this location of the signal's influx. But I don't know. Levi, did you have any net to that?

I mean, I would I would just say that this is one I think timescale is important. This is a long term. This Right. And and this is probably likely to be a pretty long term project. You can see it go... It does show going through Utah State arm area. That's another issue, but we're really looking we're looking we're looking to kind of belong in our vision and and setting up a framework for... If and when we grow, how how would our transportation network support that. So anyway,

Sarah's book. Yep.

You know, working in that... I mean, tied in that lines. It creates a huge potential for commercial. Yep. Yep. And putting that in the middle of the Utah State reduce that ability for us. So I would... I would be keeping them on the same side with.

--.

Yeah. 44. I know what you're saying. You're at 44.

I know it's 40000

for those. So keep keep 4000 and a straight East West Road here and some of the signal were somewhere.

Okay. 4400 child?

Because you have stage bed area program. Yeah. That's good. That's right. You're alright. It's been a little rough. Yeah. And this I mean, this would be very long term, like, the message. Well, 4,400,

maybe, maybe not. I mean

and seem to are really taking a lead on 4400 South. And, I mean, there's there's there's money being spent to require Midway. That's a setting done by Bio West to determine the best

place for this East West quarter.

One of the biggest motivations is really to get... Saw a higher day one through Main Street of Utah State University is on the West End of 4400 South with all the same caveats that we're for those. That's that's not going because there is a way through The United States, probably, five, six feet. And

trying to figure all that out is

is lens... Long term scale both in time and space with other entities.

Yeah. And I think... I think 4,400, that... I mean, that one at least, there... There's a lot more steam behind that developing as a quarter. I think 4,000 south. To me, that's a long... You know, being in the border port under... You know, which which had part... Other partners involved and really a lot of push that need to happen.

Thanks. Yeah. Okay. So we we will show more now than south going east west all the way through that signal. Further down is what I'm hearing from the group. But I put the recognition. Okay. Yeah. This is just one that's shown on our current plan. If you know metal with the team,

where that is about thirty eight hundred south and about two fifty west. It's right there. It's in our... It's currently in our plan. The question is whether we retain that in our plan. It can... It would connect at 450 West. So, I mean, it's really more of a local street, whether that should be required. Or the the... To the south of there is 450 West. It's also currently in in our plan. That... Once you get south of where Meadow Lane is, that that in the conservation easement right now, the shift property. And so I guess that's another question of which of those routes we put in. Does it make sense we keep that metal lane extension so that at least 450 West goes somewhere as it goes down? So it doesn't just kinda end. That's that's just the question. Do we do we take that 450 West down? There may be some... Some way to build a room that that really is needed or not.

I was just found with any thoughts about it.

Yeah. Didn't you take this out of the last transportation that you went?

Seems like you got me in Mendo. Right? You gotta put back in through an abandoned. Yeah. Work fifty West did. So it's currently adopted. It's currently in in the street map on.

Now we have the Shakespeare screen and the transformation. He's in...

Yeah. And I think I would put in, like, before that was finalized, kind of, you know, being talked about. Yeah.

Yeah. And they can open me a room with that. Because I don't see more particularly going through.

And we'll go through and do this one again seven to ten years, actually.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So I... So the unarchical, something like the unarchical on the shish conservation that it's to me like it's said and done. I don't know how the conservation allows the road, but if it doesn't and I expect it doesn't, then what is the plan for?

And I and I have a second question. Should we should we keep that metal lanes extension? And these are my... These are minor collector connections we're talking about just to keep that fine data in. Any any comments on that? And this one's likely to have some implications on Telen, You know, not necessarily a sudden. It's not something the city would likely go out with. Again, you're acquiring a developer

if and when that gets developed right there. Wait a minute. I'm trying to zoom in on that. What's the rough address for that one? It's about 3800

South. So we got where this... Where is the 3800 South coming off of 250 West. There's just a little stub road there that's been there for for a year. We can move on if you don't really have any confusion. We'll pick it up again. Yeah. And it's good. Well, we're not

we're not making final decisions now, because Yeah. If you think it looks like you don't know what we're talking about, it's because we don't know what we're talking about. It's...

It's... This case, the ball..

Yeah. Okay. So that was it kind of all specific topics here on the on the feature functional class map. Yeah.

I think we should talk about the 3,200, 3,100.

Yeah. We can Yeah. Ignore the point out, you know Definitely. Okay. So another kind of main recommendation has come from the steering committee here. So we're going through is the realignment. This is, you know, fairly fairly big project here, but realigning 3200 South to connect up to Mill Road, such as 3100 South on the West Side of 165. So we're currently doing kind of some feasibility concept studying on this to see if the alignment... How we can get the alignment to work, but 32 and south curving up and relocating that inner stat signal further north from where it is now at 3100 South at the Maverick to create a four legged intersection there. We'll be crossing over to Billville. So I don't know if anyone from the steering committee wants to add to that as well, or we could feel just general.

Yeah. I mean, just a little more context. Millville recently... We had a design to build a bridge and connect there to 200 south of there and connect into 300 of Millville. There's been there's been other concepts that have it connecting all... Connecting into Mill Road on the East Side. So, I mean, this has been looked at for decades. But I say, what's what's the best way to align these? And we're looking at we're looking at, you know, some of the benefits of having it in this location, which is a change from what from what it is on the plan on the plan currently.

So now we're putting in. This is outside of the. So people keep coming in.

Oh my god. That's the idea. That's the idea.

Yep. Yep. Yep.

That'd be what it is. Yeah. And and this this is really in a back to the future plan. This this was a responsibility on a road map road plan a long time ago because

the intersection at 3200 South And 165 was what you got called a IT intersection, which meant that urban traffic never stopped even though we had newly citizens trying to travel east on Vertu 200 South and get on to 165 with a green light and 65 mile an hour traffic got to 165, that never stopped. And so we contemplated two ways to make a complete intersection because at the time, UDOT said they would never put... There was... They they would never stop northbound traffic unless it was a forward legged intersection. So Dibbly City, in fact, bought land on the East Side of 3200 South. We we own two lots there. We don't own enough to get all the way through to Millville. But another plan was to realign this 3100 South with 3200 South with what I'm gonna start calling it Frontage Road East... Sorry, West Of of 165. And the reason Millville is interested in either the stoplight at 3200 South or maybe this plan is... Again, they wanna get their residents on to 165 who are headed north with a soft light. And we didn't follow-up on the West Frontier Road idea way back when in part because Justin will rip the scab off even after twenty years of this decision. It was probably wrong to take that off plan. But Bob and Virginia Harris, long time... Let's call them a family family of Nibley that 3,100 alignment would go through their house. They're not they're not with us anymore, and we've heard potential development of that property. The thing that gets me excited about this is a chance for Deeply to build a town center between 3200 South and 2600 South on a front end road on the west side of 561. So this gets that process started on the south end of this of this front end road. Now there's there's a bunch of wheels that have to match. One of the gears have to match to make this happen. UDOT, number one, that involves moving and traffic light in the in the UDOT jurisdiction. Property acquisition, obviously. Millville is is very involved in whether this seems like a a a good plan or not. Millville is currently rewriting their general plan, and they are including a new road master plan in their general plan. And David Herr, the mayor of Belleville, told me the version they are proposing, not adopted yet, but the version of road master plan that they're proposing, is this realignment of the... Of 3100 south of... 3200 south of 31 South with a main

one block loop north.

And they feel like they will achieve their goals. It's a much cheaper option than building a new bridge at 3200. So

Would we be putting the majority of that cost? Would we leave that and and any middle of that as far as which... Middle of those method, but their that proposal obviously takes money from their expense to ours. I think it's a great idea to move the intersection. I'm just curious to actually go off. Do we just take it out of that? It would be difficult

for us to ask Millville to fund

road development in our jurisdiction instead of theirs. There is regional cooperation, though. This may be a good candidate for a cog project. Frankly, right now, this is not even on the CMPL transportation plan. So we're working to... In conjunction with Millville to get the CMPL master transportation plan updated to include this change and try to...

And we get to weigh in on priorities. So

we haven't quite figured out yet to come...

Where the funding would come from. There's no doubt that

we would have some cost, but there could also be some cost from developers if in fact, you know, there's commercial that makes it not an opportunity for commercial development that we get commercial developers to help fund the frontage road at least.

So we get another master plan and somebody else to develop, and we're sharing our thoughts.

We we can ask for their I would like if they're there. The main system. Through their project. Right. Yep.

Yep. Well, just go for that intersection at Mill Road in 165. The cost estimate, the method plan says $1.1.126. But is that considering land acquisition to get up to that intersection, or it's just the intersection itself across them? Yeah.

Yeah. So that's... Let's see. I'll I'll look at the cost estimate for that product specifically and let you know. We are doing a cost estimate as a part of that. We would wait one set of designs. We should have that... And that should include, you know, roughly how much that right away will cost as well as actually constructing the road. It will be landed. And We should have that here in the next month.

I'm pretty sure. Okay. And just, you know, being a school teacher, really high school annoying college kids hammer maverick, where he went to multiple times, and how dangerous that that... Them getting in and out of that road can be without a light right there. I mean, my wife was driving by there even at the school the other day. She thought, holy crap. I'm going to die as as the kids are rushing to Maverick and trying to get in and out and running around. And so it's pretty serious. So they... It... You know? That that can be a problem, and I hate to see one of my students get hurt in the future and that... And if we can alleviate an impact for them. You know, we've got 2,000 kids, and they're in and out of the Nazarian. It's pretty heavy. So so it's something... I I was... I would love it if they could pull it off.

I see.

Thanks for that. The the Mill Road, the part of that that's in Middle East about half a mile from the river to West Houston, is actually one of... Used to be a State Route 238. Goes through Millville, the Monarchs, for rights,

Logan.

That became a county road in an exchange for you to take the ownership of 10th West. And the county has made no bones out of at least the executive and the county council of trying to do that by... Divest themselves of 238. And I would admit, one of the things that I get really caught on putting signalized... Throwaway signalized intersection at 3200 South is the temptation to close off 3100 South, and that's that's something that's good for us. So if we can if we can fix 3100 South, let's feature 3100

South and make it make it the

the Center Street, same street intersection for Nick Wood.

But you can't take JDs out, will you? That's right behind the perimeter. Go right behind the perimeter. Yeah.

Thank you.. Thank you.. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. The agenda. Yeah. I'm I'm gonna be in person for twenty minutes. K.

Yeah.

This approach. Just... I don't know if it supports as much shipping activity as as we need. Bring that up. Thank you. Yeah. Any any other comments here on on the map in general? Are you seeing any any does your reason...

This is probably personal. I've been my battle for six years. I'm leaning in six hundred west south of thirty two and mid. Yeah. We... I think you might... You made my comment on that. We officially caught up in the mid... Between work time and coming home from work. And people come down that road and and they don't do it. I walked my dog and I and Michelle came around and he leaned about 30 degrees going around those big blind corners and and he was having great time running the... That wine that he's going. And I mean, it says here's my collector, but there are times this... I mean, I do walk in probably three in the morning for a week with my dog. People come through there pretty good clip. They aren't doing 25, I promise. And I I saw that we... We've we've tried, you know, we've put up the spike and signs and stuff. We've done the the traffic collectors, and the timing has been bad. And our positioning of the traffic signs has been bad. We put it up to check traffic and speed. And I don't, you know, put something at the traffic information during spring break and things like that and then get it. So... But but even that, when I found out about the the the lights, the flash, the speed, and sitting with breakfast with a young man, getting it on his mission, he was confessing his sins, I swear. They liked it because at night, they'd light up and see how fast that thing you'd go into the clock room. They'd take a look at it. They'd take a look at it and it went down low and down low. I don't think that was the purpose. It's really... So so we can find the other way it is, you know, on that road, the slow things down a little bit. Because we have over a 100 kids that wander that street, that goes to school and stuff. And if you walk down on the school they're living out, those kids, they just... They're all over their bikes and stuff. I was like, one guy, he had his info drawn right in his bike. Okay? And if you swerve it all around, it'd be great if you could get that. They didn't know it was there. All of a sudden, it was right there. You know? I'm just concerned with where the contact is that they're the way people are guarding that load. So Thank you. --. So while we're at this, let's look at some of those supplier collectors who replaced the cap.

Yeah. We agreed to speak to some person. Thanks, Mike. And

I'm guessing you would be surprised how many

of comment... How many comments I received that are so similar to that all around Nibley. Mhmm. I I had a text this afternoon. I know here's a new one, but my phone just rang, and I'm about 98% certain. It's the same kind of how do you slow... How are we gonna slow people down in front of my house? And how are we gonna make the streets that my kids are on and the streets around my house safe? And... And I don't have kids. Can I still worry about the kids? It is the same thing. And so I think that... And I don't know. Maybe Tom talked to you about this a little bit, but the idea of this interactive map... If if we could have that map outlive the road master plan update so that people could make those kinds of comments. Oh, and by the way, Tom Davidson, our Arc City Engineer, gets more requests to slow people down than I do.

If we can make that map,

continue that after the road map plan as an ongoing help us identify safety issues and then try to figure out what what citizens who would like to have cars slowed down next to their house and who who who would like to entertain the idea of methods to make that happen, whether it's things that they responded to in a survey or whatever. Look at some alternatives,

well, to find out how... And then and then prioritize

and let the city council figure out how to pay for those, how much money we have to implement some of those. I'm not gonna use the ugly word that people don't like. I'll use traffic slowing Yeah. Measures instead of the different word. Okay? Sure. Alrighty.

Am I am I doing okay here? Correct. Traffic's slowly.

And and I think that just has to turn into

an ongoing process as as as we grow, as we have more people, as we have more kids that are trying to get around with different modes of transportation, we just we just we just have to build that into the... We have to bake that into the process. Yeah. Because the new middle school, you know,

it it... It's busier now going down the street and gives the government a bad nurse because they're no longer in bus range. You know, they used to ride the bus in Spring Creek where the South Paris. Now the bus is... They're too close.

So now they're walking. There's a there's a lot of... Or or getting their parents to drive in.

Yeah. They're walking on her.

And then we did provide resources in the document itself and recommendations for the city to adopt a traffic calming. Sorry. I used the buzzword. Traffic calming application. So it'd be it'd be a traffic calming program, essentially. We have filled those comments and address them through a kind of an automated process. We provide... We'll provide some examples and references on that. Obviously, you can set that up. Thank you very much, Brady. Okay. So we got those those comments. Those projects map maps here. Assign any homework from this invitation, look over those printed project maps and especially being pushed into space one projects in red that will in the influence the impact fees. So essentially, the project will happen in the next ten years. But it's not... If you have any comments on those, I don't know. I hear them individually. But please do attend public overviews here on October 14, twenty thirty seven PM.

Again, the school has been really in November. Thank you for your input today.

And you can contact me. Here's my email up here at Kyle dot org at @GoodsteinConsulting.com with any additional comments or questions or concerns. So thank you, everybody.

I'm pretty good at getting the last point. I think we're ready to schedule. Or 8PM, it says it's as a journal. Sounds exactly. He knows that he knows how long things take, but in at eight minutes.

So you might have to.

Say not to load. No..

We do. With that, we'll take a five minute request. It's okay.

It's great.

What?

Yeah. And I'll... Wait. Maybe I'll I'll say this with the whole group.

Have you ever seen?

Unless you all vote. Yeah. You know what I mean? Part. It used to be like that for city council, and they changed it.

Where are they gonna start? Start early. Take some shit. 04:00.

Yeah. Alright. Thank you.

We're moving on to

number six on our agenda tonight is a public hearing or ordinance six fourteen, many city code, sections 19 dot 24 dot ninety and nineteen dot 28 dot 60, redesignating the appeal authority for certain land use applications. Alright. And

With that, we will go to Levi. Yeah. Thanks, Troy. And this item with the public hearing is is pretty straightforward. I know I know some of you were kind of cognizant of time. I'll say that the last item... When when we get to that, I would... Not super time sensitive. So if if you don't wanna spend a lot of time on that, that's that's okay. But just just... It's it's up to you once we get to that point. I just wanted to kinda start with that. But this first one is is pretty straightforward. So the the state legislature, they passed... They they passed a a law this last year that prohibits city council from acting as the appeal authority for any land use application. So in order to be compliant with that law, we... That's what... That was the primary purpose of this amendment. And within our code, currently, city council is the appeal authority for conditional use permits, not necessarily for other land use applications, but they are for conditional use permits. So this would this would change... This would amend the code and assign the administrative appeals hearing officer. And And just so you know who who that actually is, it's a contracted attorney, that the city goes through. We have a fee to to pay for for their time. And so if... When... If and when there are appeals, that's that's who they go through. In general, the other thing with appeals is they pay the fee, but if if they, if, basically, if they win their appeal, then they get the feedback. If they don't, then then they have to, you know, then the fee stands. So that... That's just just so you know kinda how that operates. As we're doing this, the second recommendation is not necessarily a... It's not a requirement of the state. The planning commission can be an appeal authority. City council can. Planning commission can. But the only thing that, at least, that I could find in city code that... And I'm I'm pretty sure this is the case, that the planning commission is the appeal authority for is fence permits. And staff's recommending just while we do this to also assign the administrative appeal hearing officer for fence permits. Part of the reason for this is just the fact that this is so rare and so... It's so uncommon, and we've we've never had a appeal for a fence permit while I've been here in the six and a half years. If and when we do get one, I think... I know I know if I were sitting in in your shoes, it'd be a little bit of a deer in the headlights kind of thing because you have to go through certain procedures. It... You're you're basically acting as a judge. It's a quasi judicial issue. And so in in my mind, just for separation of duties, and it does make sense to have have some kind of a third party that acts as that appeal authority. And, really, what what an appeal is or kind of the extent of an appeal is it... It's not whether necessarily that that person or that body thinks it's a good idea or anything. It's it's really interpreting the law and saying, okay. Whoever the whoever the approval authority, were they in error either in in the process or in the... In how they how they applied that code? And and is there something, you know, that they were in error on? And having a, you know, kind of a third party attorney do that is... It seems to work well, you know, for for us. And so that's that's the recommendation here. So that's simply what what this is. It's pretty... Not not a lot of text change to it, but staff's recommendation is to recommend approval of this change to Nublix city code.

Thank you, Matt. Alright. With that,

we will open the public hearing. We did have some people sign up, but they are no longer here. So with that, we will close the public hearing and move on to item number seven, discussion. So I will open it up to the commission or any motions.

I'll make a motion. Get involved or anyone. Make a motion for Google Works twenty six fourteen. It's for recommendation for approval of what we sent to the city council. Yeah. I do like the third party accent because then you're not, I guess, biased or

I'll I'll certainly vote in so we can have this. Okay. Sorry. Yep.

So just because chance. So the motion was to recommend approval of ordinance twenty six fourteen. Was that including or not including the planning commission to

third party for the

Okay. On the back. It's including the recommendation from staff as a third party. Okay.

Right. So I'll restate the motion. So the motion is recommend approval of ordinance twenty six fourteen with the items suggested by staff and a second by Hamishumi. Alright. Discussion on that, Hamishumi?

Okay. My first question would be is they're only gonna let you know if we follow the ordinance with cotton. You know? If we follow the ordinance, we'll write on the... They're gonna change what we've done. You know? Because if we... I'm looking at... They... We need to change what we've done. I'm gonna send it back to us and let's look at it, you know, and and see, you know, see if we can work it out. You know? You know what? Let me say, oh, we're just gonna wipe everything away from the end.

Does that make sense? Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. That... That's really the extent of an appeal. And and I will say that that's the first that's their first option. The next is taking it to district court of... If if they don't like the the decision in the appeal authority, they... I know. And they can go on all the way up to the Supreme Court. It basically starts that that that process. Yeah..

The planning commission for defense or the third party. Right? I mean, nothing changed. Yeah. Making that decision. Right.

Mike, are you trying to say that we should... The testing here or not? I wasn't sure.

No. I'm just thinking I'm I'm thinking I'm gonna do this.

Right. Yeah.

I'll agree. Like, it... Right. Appeals is getting into legal ground, and who better to make a legal decision than a legal profession. On both cases, they just like

that. They're also not attached to it for our argument on

why it is... We're not trying to defend defend your decision. Mhmm.

I don't see a problem either. You get it in the commission or sending it out. So I mean, I'm fine either way.

We're ready for both ends. Sounds like everybody's okay. Alright. So all in favor of the motion, say aye. Aye. None opposed. Alright. It's four zero. Alrighty. Moving on. Item number eight is a workshop on home occupation regulations and markdowns,

and I'll pass that over to you, Filip.

Alright. So you may have noticed kind of this trend. There... These little farm stands popping up around, not just in Nibley, kind of all over the place. And there... We've we've gotten a substantial number of requests about them. The the... There are some restrictions in Nibley City code that make it difficult to to do these legally. And so, really, the the overarching question is, do we wanna loosen up our code to encourage or allow these? Or or... You know? And if we do that, should we should we allow mitigating conditions and certain standards? Or... So, anyway, that's really what this is about because currently in in city code, really, the closest definition for a farm stand is a farmer's market, which is... I don't have the definition on there. It's it's in the packet. But, really, a farmer's market is is kinda bigger, broader than that. That's usually several vendors. But but at least in reading our code, that's kinda the closest thing we have to a farmstead. And so if someone comes in and they want to, you know, operate their business out of farmstead, we can't call it a home occupation because, you know, even if it's right in front of their house, because we have this provision with home occupations that you can't operate outside of the main building. So the closest thing it can be is a farmer's market. And farmer's market, they're not allowed in the r two or the r two a zone, which is very common all across the city, all along kind of main corridors that you... We've got r two zones or r two a zones, you know, all over. Whether it's 3,200, 800 West, a lot of these corridors that a lot of people would like to put in these farm stands. Something else is, at least if it's a permanent... Well... And, really, even even if it's not... We have this provision that accessory buildings cannot be located in the front yard setback area. So that's also kind of an issue with some of these structures with the farm stand that's kinda getting in the way of of some of them being established. You know? And some of these, we wouldn't necessarily consider them a structure if it's not permanent, not on the foundation. So I guess if if you loosened up some of these other provisions, you could probably still keep that as long as you wanted to keep it more. Okay. This isn't a permanent thing. It's it's kinda seasonal. They they put they put their kinda basically upgraded lemonade stand out there, and then you put it away. But but some of them are are more permanent. So that's just something to keep in mind. So just some questions that staff would like just to solicit some discussion on this. And, really, just per... The the purpose, really, is to provide direction. Should we should we pursue some kind of amendments? What what should be some of those amendments? What are some what... Or or is there some additional research that we should do? So should the city define and treat farm stands differently than a larger scale farmer's market? Should the city establish a framework to allow the operation of farm stands specific zones along specific corridors or citywide. Maybe I'll stop in between them instead of going through the whole thing. So in general, do you think we should look at farm stands, treat them differently than the farmers market? K.

K.

5,000. So one... I swear one of them has been moved out. The workers have been moved out on the desk Or just the desk room property is not developed. Okay. I think you know that condition. The final report is just about... If you go around on the on the on the east side of the... There's... They've got one right against their house. They're just selling flowers. The owners are selling vegetables and flowers and stuff, you know, and then they're growing. And there's a new... They know and... Well, by the cocoon there. It is all self serve. Both of them all self serve. He was going to get them and stuff. Well, this is a little operation. It's, you know, you know, I don't think I'd be permanent in their locations. Maybe maybe it's in Cecil. Well, that would be March 5 and Cecil. And then

we're back. Is it is it on their property or versus in the parts?

What? But the one is, it it comes down as the the trail, okay, that that we talked about that comes into that and the word is happening over here and there's status on on the corner of the property that is this property over here. It would be the parts that per se if there were parts in there. That makes sense?

I'm... I guess I'm not against it. I just

I guess someone would become a a sore or... Oh, that she painted up really pretty somewhat. Easy after up and down. Yeah. You put flowers on. It's really great.

This card is in a truck. Yeah. Yeah.

And if she did like this, it looks... And then it looks like.

Better than smoking. Kyle, do you have any thoughts? Yeah. I think we should maybe create a new category for it to add. So then

I think... Yeah. I mean, because let's be real. We're having a commercial production of fruits and vegetables out here. Right? So not large scale. I think it's a great opportunity for kids to be able to grow vegetables. I've got a friend down in South Utah that

they grow it on their

lot, and their kids sell it. It's a fun little thing for them to do. So I say, let's keep that in the in the books for them. Yeah. I think we can. Maybe we can workshop some ideas on how to keep it.

Urban raw. Yeah. You know? We like

Yeah. Seasonal. I mean, you know, they're gonna maybe end of the summer, fall.

Move it off. Yeah. In the back of the morning.

How Yeah. I mean, I guess the question is... So some of them sell fruits and vegetables. A lot of them sell other things. They they sell a variety of different things on these. Is... I... I'm I'm kinda seeing that as a as a trend. Is that a problem? Right? Or does it have to be fruit and vegetables and Yep. Things made or grown on the property? I I know some cities look at those differently, but... Yeah.

I have none.

Personally, I feel that asking should we allow farm stands is the wrong question to be asking. Like, was mentioned... Like, Nibley always talks about, oh, we want commercial. We want commercial. We want commercial. But the only commercial that that is on the front of anybody's mind is large retailers. And at the same time, you have a lot of people saying, buy local. And you're not gonna get both of those if you prohibit local until they're a major retailer.

Right? So I I... Personally, I feel it is the city's

role to foster that local mindset and allow the ability for somebody to test the waters and then scale. And so in my opinion, the the question that should be getting asked is instead of should we allow farm stands, is what is the largest amount of commercial activity that we can reasonably... Or that can reasonably occur on a residential property without it materially changing the residential character.

I hope. And then Okay.

And then create a framework for that that can scale and then have that ability to move up that framework by right. So you take out a lot of the the hoops and stuff. So if if, right, kids can start their thing,

but maybe adults wanna start a thing.

And then we're not regulating, well, it has to... They can only sell this or they can only sell that or they can only do this or they can only do that. It's framework that just says, you wanna do commercial, you can do it. Whatever it is, here's the scales. And then maybe they start off small. They wanna grow it a little bit more. They can go up with the the framework to the next the next rung. I kinda like it here, or maybe I wanna scale it some more. I go a little bigger. And maybe now they have an employee there or whatever it is, but a framework that allows them to scale from arm stand to being able when we have physical brick and mortar storefronts for them to move in. That's just my thoughts. I'm just allowing the city to foster that in the community and not prohibiting Two points.

Cuts. Okay. At some point, we're gonna have to... Whether we have the the brick and mortar ourselves or not in the city, they might need to pack it up and move it out. So he says it might be... Do something for the neighborhood. I'm thinking I have a a neighbor who's sort of standing. I don't know. He had it on to his house all of a sudden, and it's for his business. And... Or he has a shed back there That's for his business, and he... He's out on the side. I don't know if you got the ability to be or not. He tends to just do things on his own, but he's got it on to his house, and it's all for his business. And plus, he did the operating on the shed. It is a landscape business. It is a construction business. He's got big big diesel Dodge trucks and trailers and pulls out there at 06:30 in the morning with them and goes to work and all kinds of good stuff. And if he's added on to his house, it's... And and, you know, I've been watching all summer. He built... Bill would work on himself and stuff. And at what point does he have to move his operation out of the neighborhood?

And that's what I'm saying. Right? It's... You you create a framework Yep. That you can scale. Right? Like, here is by right. Here is by right. Next level is by right. This level, now you need a permit because you're you're building something. And then this level, you need a permit for whatever because now you're having a little bit more impact. Right? You have maybe some regular customers that comes throughout the day. And now we need to make sure, you know, do you have this this submission space for maybe apartments bought or something like that. Not to the scale of, like, a actual full retailer, but something that's less... Allows for less impact on the neighborhood, but still, again, fostering that entrepreneurship. And then, okay. Now you wanna go to the next one? No. You gotta get actual commercial space. Yeah. Right? That is one which one did 600

West instead of being the park the most high US for you.

And and you get... And, again, in the framework, you could say, okay. You know, these levels are buy right everywhere. When you get to this level, k, this is only allowed on these quarters.

Yeah. Right? Like, you can do whatever the framework wants to look like. What are you thinking as part levels? How do you Yeah. That's the gauge scale. This is the scale of this. Like, the green page.

The frequency of customers. I mean,

for parking. Yeah. So I have some stuff written down, but I didn't... Like, this is stuff that stats way better than I, and this is just brainstorming some stuff. Not necessarily.

Don't don't don't undersell yourself, Troy. Remember how the parking went. Your your ideas are the ones that got adopted. So

so, like, I just have, like, five different level. So, like, a home business.

Right? So you you don't really have very much

customers or very, very few, like, almost no impact. It's just... Primarily indoors in your house kind of a thing. It's just a... Sure. And it could be a point. Then, like, the next level is where you get to actual outdoor sales, like a farm stand, and then you regulate right here's the size or the the scale of whatever it is. You can maybe put up a sign. You know, you can regulate hours or whatever. Next level,

you know, maybe they are now running out of the garage or adding on to their garage.

Maybe they have one or two employees. Maybe they're they're they're making some stuff, baking some goods or whatever it is. Small little workshop making wood stuff. I don't know. And then that's when you start looking at, you know, like, hey. What is what is parking requirements? What is noise levels? What is... You know, if you're getting delivery, what are those kind of things looking at? And, like, the next one, again, this would be along through more bigger corridors. Right now, you have a stand alone little storefront. Again, like, when I'm looking at this, like, I'm thinking, what are, like, the most popular vacation destinations? Right? This is the things that they have. Right? Where would people wanna go on vacation? And these are the things that you see there. Right? Like, if you go to Japan, like, every single house, right, they have... Here's a little barbershop here. Here's a little restaurant or whatever that only seats, you know, maybe four people. Something really small that allows that family to run a business that's not having astronomical impacts on that neighborhood but allows the family to have a business. And it's local in that neighborhood. Right? So, again, whatever standalone with the storefront and then with standards, right, that you need to meet these standards. And then after that, commercial. Right? Standard commercial goal to the commercial zone. So just, you know, vague. Those are vague, I think.

Levi, I know we already have a lot of this in place for, like, a salon in the house or things like that. So I think we have a place. Right? We just wanna get into the stuff that we're not capturing with that. Right? Yeah. I think

I think it would be beefing up that framework of home occupation, and I think opening up more possibilities than what we currently have. So the the framework now really is, does the business operate in the home? If it doesn't... If it... If it's outside, you know, in the front yard or or in the backyard and outside of of the home or in an accessory building, then we have to... We just categorize it as as whatever that use is. And if it's in a residential zone, most likely, it's not allowed. So, really, the way it operates now is if you can fit your business in the four walls of your home, you're fine. We're not... We're probably not gonna bug you about it. Now, obviously, you got a... You got... We have other... We have nuisance, like, noise ordinance and and things like that. But as far as... It's a permitted use, home occupation and... Which, by the way, it used to be conditional. All of those used to come to the planning commission, like, five, ten years ago. So we're... I think we're a little more lenient now than we used to be, but we do get a lot of requests from a lot of different people, not not only for, like, retail type business, but other businesses that would like to operate out of a detached structure, not necessarily in their front yard, maybe in their backyard. Maybe they have additional land, and they they wanna have a shop back there. And we don't allow... Some things we don't we don't allow any auto related businesses in... As a as a home occupation. I think I think there's some reasons for that, but but that's one that we often see a lot of violations for. So... And and we see a lot of people request that, that they would like to operate some kind of small shop in their in their shed, and we say, no. You can't do that. So So then we have to go after them from code enforcement standpoint. We have some limitations also on, like, day cares and and preschools, but those are mere actually what the state regulations are anyway. So that... I don't feel like those... Though... Those don't really cause a lot of heartache. I would say I would say this this idea of, hey. I wanna do something outside of my home. Like, my home is where my my family and I live. I don't... I wanna do something just outside of that but still on my property. We hear a lot of requests for that, and and we and we have to tell them no. Or or maybe they get a business license and they do it anyway, and no one finds out about it. I... I'm sure that happens. I hear that happens a couple of times. So do we wanna legalize that?... Of of of these requests that you guys are getting in, like, similar farm stand and what can we do with this? Well, yeah, the farm stands one. The the auto shops another. But just in general, just somebody that want... That would like to operate a business out of an accessory building. Different types. Could be could be kind of small scale manufacturing. No. Retail. Like, we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're 32. Yeah. And and we do, by the way, allow artists in shops as a conditionally use in, I think, in residential zones. So that... I guess there is an option for some of that, but some of these businesses don't quite fit within that definition. And so we have to tell them no. No. It's just not allowed. I I probably should I probably should log all the times I have to... You know, I I fill these calls, and I I have to say no too because it's happened quite a few times. Yeah. And that one... Maybe I'll tell a little bit of a story on that one. So she originally wanted to build a separate flower shop. And so in order to do that, you have to change the zoning. So she pursues... Or you had you had to change the the charter. So she pursued, and and she got approved for allowing a flower shop, not a home occupation, but a flower shop in the R one a zone where that's located. That that was allowed. Then when she got down to actually building the shop, she didn't have space for it on her lot. She had a big she had a big drainage easement that covered the whole Oh, crap. The whole area. So then she just did it as an add on. And so, ultimately, she didn't really need to change the zoning because it was allowed as a home occupation because that was just an add on to the the house, which by definition is a home occupation. Even though it's like a little retail kinda shop.. Yeah. So so, anyway, she had to kind of navigate that process. And I think to to Troy's point, I think where... At least what what I'm hearing you going is maybe it shouldn't be so hard for people that are trying to... Because before, she just operated out of her home. Right? People would come to her front door, and and she wanted to kinda separate that from from her house, but still still be at home. And I think the way we have it now, it's a little bit odd if you think about it that we're okay with it as long as, you know, when you answer the... When you knock on the door, maybe a dog's gonna come out and bark at you, and and there's gonna be a kid, you know, in in his diaper. But we don't we don't want, like, that separate kind of commercial type business because it's in a residential zone. I don't know. It's a little odd to me. But We do. And I'm sure there's limits. Right? Because at some... At a certain point, yeah, it... It's impactful. Yeah. So it's like, how do we define those? That... That's gonna be the We do have business.

Shop and then also with me. And they said, okay. Your slot weighs a long narrow slot... Long narrow property and the equipment is something back. But they're not working. Their office is in the house, so that may... Outside the building, like your neighborhood

going somewhere else. I think something else to consider is at a certain point, the building code comes into play as well because there's different standards for commercial versus residential. So one... You know, once you graduate to a certain point... And I don't know if it's exactly at what you're describing, Troy, as a commercial. I wonder if it's somewhere before that that the building code starts to be kind of a There are 50 units. You know? And and and that's already established. So... But but that's just something to consider is, like, when does it graduate to be a a building permit issue where it's not... It's no longer residential. It's commercial. I don't know.

Any direction, though? I I think we need to ease up and allow. I think we need to ease it up and allow. I think we need ease to that allow

allow us to a point. You know? Yeah.

You know, you know, settle sometimes overwhelming. Yeah. That's why it only happens one day.

So whether it's toilet car within yours. Yeah. Well, and maybe that's another question. Do we look at temporary different... Differently than permanent? And do we Yeah.

I don't know. I I think it'll be a little bit

different scenario.

You know, it's not easy to hold here in fine print. I think that they've definitely... Because if it becomes year round, they... That's the neighbors, like, this is gonna be parking and people, kinda, you know, things like that. And and we do have, you know, we... People like to have their residential area be quiet and not be full of Look like if you're a a sunny mood. Yeah. That would be a a lot of back. It can be deployed, things like that.

And so I mean, there's a lot of quality shops that do quality in our house, and people can go can go.

Yeah.

Well, maybe we don't get... As far as the scale, or a way to kinda measure it is you've got temporary. It's

less than seven days, seven days or less. That's something that's gonna be there. Like, the RSO would qualify for that. Right? We're not gonna... Maybe we don't do anything for that as long as it's something that you put up and take down with it a certain number of days. And then if it's gonna be, you know, longer than a month, then maybe we've got one month to three month window. That would be, like, maybe your very seasonal thing, and then

maybe that's how we could scale. Are

you regulating what they're doing?

Yep. As long as it's waiting.

Like, we can only do farm goods and only do no, you know, like... Or or you're just opening it up. Well, you gotta be careful in residential,

which you're opening up to too. You know, I don't wanna love each other. I'm gonna

be great. Not decorative. Wilding. No.

I've captured him. Wildly. Oh. An artist. Did did you know what is documented about bringing him?

Well, I mean, your neighbor can be willing, you know, being in occupation,

and you don't have a say in that. Yeah. But the reason is to be a COVID hit. Just do it for themselves.

So I think too, like, to the point, like, if somebody's gonna be like, hey. You know what? Like, I couldn't all year long, and then for two or three months, I want to try and mark and sell that in my front yard. Yeah. Then, you know, maybe that falls into a certain category like the the third party stand and then the fourth stand. Because then we're gonna get into the full commercial thing if it's gonna be

beyond that, remain year round. Again, my point was, like like, a side hustle. Right? Like, if I'm wanting to to try this out, I don't know if I wanna open a restaurant or whatever it is. Right? I wanna do small batches. Are we allowing for that to be a permanent side hustle? Right? Maybe maybe I only want to keep it this small, and I don't wanna go full full blown. Maybe we should fix or we're the fix. Right. But I don't mind doing, you know, small batches every single day or through the year. Right? Or we say, okay. Well, you can only have a side hustle during the summertime. Right? And and and you don't get to... We aren't allowing people to judge where they want to land. Is this something that is a hobby? Is this something that I wanna do as a side hustle? Is this something I wanna do as a... My my career, right, as as what... As my own business? Or is this something I wanna scale and maybe have, like, a chain? Right? Maybe... I don't know. But mold...

Are you... Are you saying to have a business license for New York City, or can I do, like, a quilt, and I sell every every two months or something like that or every three weeks or everything? So I think it is because you're talking more like... Is is there a storefront in your house, or is there a storefront in the front lawn on a stand? Or maybe it's electronically

all over the time. Right. Yeah. And that's the thing is, like, are we gonna, like, make it impossible to do one or many of those and say, okay. Well, you can only beat, like, the kids, and and maybe you can only sell little three d printed doodads. And and that's it. Right? Like, your your stand is up there for only a couple weeks, and then you're done. Well, but then we're then we're running a full retail business in our front lawn. Right? Is is that a bad thing? I mean, if you look at... Again, like, that is the standard in so many places. And and some of the most desired places to live is neighborhoods that have that kind of... Like, that neighborhood vibe. Right? Like, I'm supporting my neighbor. I have this... My name... My neighbor. I I think a lot of times we we look at... This is gonna be a nuisance to me instead of this is gonna be a boom to me, right, a benefit to me. Because now I have something that I can go... Maybe maybe they sell drinks, and I can go after... I don't have to go across town. I can go to my neighbor's next door and get a little drink. Right? What... Whatever it is. You have that extra foot traffic. Now you have safety. Right? You have eyes on the street. You have more people on your block. And with that, you have people looking out for other people, and it's additional safety in the neighborhood. Right? You're not gonna do something bad when there's people that's constantly there. Okay. So there's additional benefits. And and I think so many times, we just look and just say, this is gonna be... This is terrible. Right? This is gonna be... This is not what I wanna do, so it's gonna negatively impact me instead of how can we benefit me?

Well, I guess, I think I'm trying to understand. Are you saying we're basically... This farm stand idea where they have a business there and they get a drink or whatever it is, That's just basically a commercial business in the front of somebody's house.

Yeah. Again again, it's it's the scale. Right? Like Right. At some point, if they're getting more people, they're gonna wanna scale. Mhmm. And so they're either gonna not scale or, like, this is getting too much, and I just want it at this level. Or I want to scale, and then what is the next run on that framework? Right? Maybe now I need a permit. Maybe now I need a little

a little

storefront thing, or maybe I'm so big now I actually do need a product spot. And so that... Again, it just gives the the decision to the people on where they want to land on that scale. Right?

K. Because I'm gonna come back to this. You're letting one person make the decision for the neighborhood. And control the traffic. And control the traffic. And maybe the rest of the neighbors don't want that. And so, you know, we've gotta be careful here. I I I I see what you're talking about.

But most of the neighbors

that live... At least in my neighborhood don't want a lot of business. That's why they live here. If we wouldn't live in the commercial zone, we would. You know, if that's a good deal. I think you gotta be real careful about that. I know even though maybe maybe they're permitted, that's what they're doing, but they... They're... They are some of the nuisance for the neighbors already, and they operate year round. And and so they are the popular in the neighborhood because of how they operate and what they're doing. You know, the volumes is permitted and everything. I I I hope it is. And some... But the one that's in our neighborhood, you you know, they operate year round, have have employees coming and going year round, and and stuff. Yes. They're offering off... Outside. But you have four or five guys with trucks and stuff pulling in in the morning and go out, you know, out with their big diesel... With the diesel dodges, pulling trailers and stuff, and and getting out of there. You know, the neighbor's kids are waking up and not... And then, you know, it's... There's... There is scale and that I think your neighborhood has to be engaged in that. And one person should be able to tell us, I'm gonna start my business right home, and I'm gonna run it here around, and you're gonna talk after this take care. Because I'm do... Because I'm moving in with my business. Yeah. Yeah. And and that's why you have framework.

Right? Like, these are the things that trigger

the next thing. When you get to this point, when you start having these kind of impacts, like, you are now at the next rung, and these are the things that you need to do. Now you need x y z, whatever it is that the framework says you do. You need a permit. You need whatever. You need another building, whatever it is. Right? I have another employee. Boom. Now that triggers. That's the next framework or the next rung or whatever. That's all part of the framework. That's what I'm saying is it's not just willy willy. Like, there's there's still things that need to be followed with, but you open it up.

If you probably get worse on it. Yeah. The... I I think I think the challenge... The one the one the one advantage with the way we do it now is it's very easy to define and that, hey. There's your house. That's where your business goes. And so I think the challenge is going to be coming up with a framework that is that is definable, enforceable. You know? It can't it can't just be abstract. It can't be... And I think it's gonna be difficult to say, oh, well, this is going to attract traffic. How much traffic is this going? I mean, we ask that question. Actually, we we asked we asked how... If peep... If they have, clients coming to the home. Because if they do, that puts them into what we consider an impact business, and they have to actually pay a fee. If they don't, we don't we don't require a fee for renewing their licenses. So there's certain things we can ask, but I... It... We just need to be realistic also about what we can what we can define and what is really gonna be really difficult. I mean, if it's gonna take a study, then then we shouldn't put it in there. Right? It's gotta it's gotta be simple for us to say, okay. Is it square footage? Is it number of employees? Is it something that we can easily ask and define for that framework if if we're gonna go in this direction? That's something I would I would

hope for. So so it's

it's two months, then it has to be small. Like, maybe you say, like, a 10 by two... Like, 200 square feet, if it's gonna be just like the time, it has to be smaller than that or larger than that. Is that what you're kinda thinking is some measurable

Yeah. Something that's measurable. What... Whatever it is. And it has to be appropriate. It shouldn't just be arbitrary. But if we're gonna have standards, it's gotta be something, especially if it's gonna be administered, like, to say by right... If it's gonna be administrative approval, not something that has to come to planning commission, you have to debate about the impacts and things. It... It's gotta be objective objective standards of this is... You know, is it is it a certain setback? Is it a a time scale? This is when it can operate. It can't operate too late into the evening. Whatever those are just needs to be something that's very clear to to staff and to the applicant. Hey. Here's here's the framework. This is what you're in, and and it's it's not just, like, arbitrary.

Because we're not sitting in the... For too many dogs, even a rooster.

Yeah. We don't wanna... Yeah. That's the other thing. We don't wanna make it a a code enforcement issue, but... Yeah. Yeah.

What's this?

The one.

So I guess the... Maybe the question I have... I I I think Troy has some good ideas. It sounds like from the discussion, this is a little broader than just farm stand of kind of rework... Looking at reworking the framework of our home occupation ordinance and and kind of redefining that with... And I think the different tiers, I I... This this kinda gets into the business license requirement. Like, we require business license technically for pretty much anything, any type of business. Maybe maybe we get into that and say, you know, hey. If it's for... Three or four months, we don't need a good look. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. Oh. Maybe. I I don't know. There... Maybe there's some line we can draw that's, okay. This doesn't need a license. This is where it needs a license. This is where it needs Approval of approval. Yeah. Approval. Like, what's the process? So... I mean, is there a kinda general agreement that this is broader than... I mean, we can we can think about the farm stand and just as as a

Two separate issues. Right? --.

Well, I I think I think the farm stand issue is is related. Right? I think we can tackle that at the same time that we're kinda tackling this broader issue of farm stand.

It's probably

more permanent, maybe a year,

six, six months, three months. The option two. The option two. Yeah. And maybe that's what we think. If you're going six months along. Okay. We're gonna have

to decide

on the overspread daytime, things like that. Yeah. I'll look into... I'll look at some different examples too. I don't know if there's any good examples out there, Troy. So sometimes it's nice to look at some... What some other cities are doing, and I don't know. There's a lot of bad examples out there is what I found. Yeah. But maybe there's some good ones too. We don't... We don't... I'm not saying we need a copy what other cities do, but but sometimes it it helps look at, you know, a framework and work... Kinda work from there. Yeah. Chat GPT. There you go. Yeah. See, they use AI.

Yeah. I I know I can... I'll see if I can find it, and I'll I'll I'll BCC everybody.

Like, some examples, like... Because, like, neighborhood commercial is, like... It's always been, like, such a cool thing to me. Like, you go into older neighborhoods, in, like, a lot of older cities, and that was just a thing. And so you see, like what it was called. Little restaurants and little cafes and whatever. It's all over, like, you know, just spread out in a random spot in the neighborhood. And it just becomes this cool hangout spot in the neighborhood where people wanna congregate, and the neighborhood gets together. And it just becomes this this draw point in the neighborhood of, like, what makes your neighborhood cool? What that that does. Right? That brings us together as a as a neighborhood because of this small little business these people wanted to do. It's a little cafe or whatever.

Yep. And I think you're gonna have to work on a cultural change in our area. Yes. Yes. Our our culture isn't quite ready for that. You know, we were not convinced we buy quartering a lots, a half week of lots for a reason, you know, in the middle of that space.

And and I think you kinda see that with the Farmstand idea. Right? If you go back years, you never saw it. And then as soon as you... Somebody starts the ball rolling, and it becomes, oh, yeah. That's an idea I never thought of. Right? And then it starts to build that kind of... That culture and that changing culture. And I and I think that kinda probably stands true with a lot of the other things. It's like, oh, that's new. That's scary. And then as soon as somebody starts, oh, that's really cool. I actually like that. And then it kinda becomes a norm.

Or if the neighbors don't like it, it would be a... There's gonna be a point and someone's gonna start something, and the neighbors may not like it. And they might stuck with it. What what Yeah. Get into the first

full land use for someone else. Right? Right? Again,

with the framework is starting. Right? Like, business hours, etcetera. Yeah. Yeah. What net impacts

the investment? Yeah. And if no one's interested in the business, the business won't thrive and it will die. You know, it should be this is going to hit winners and losers. It should be to foster people to exercise their rights and abilities and property. So Yep. Bringing cities endorsement

is is not a different party. Make sure inside of the same. So I just have fresh vegetables. Yeah..

It's a bad phrase. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I I think... I'm not sure if I'm gonna have something ready, or it might be it might be another workshop before we have an actual ordinance for... To bounce off you. We might... May... Maybe a few examples, maybe present some research. Troy can, share some things. It... May... Maybe we have another workshop on this before we kinda hone in on exactly what, you know, what direction to go. That's kinda what I'm getting. I I I I think you've given me some good feedback on maybe some additional research to do and and and maybe some jotting some ideas down.

Well, that'd be easier. Well, that's

what this is worth about. Yeah. I I mean, I just wanted to get your opinion because when I see these, I'm like, well, what problem is it? Like, I don't see a huge problem with it. But I know that there are valid concerns, and so I just wanted to kinda get all that out on the table and see a different a different approach to it. So... Okay.

Yeah. And then we ran into running up to one of the white flowers while I'm talking to Dominic. You have been getting loaded. There's a whole bunch of little flowers there. He's like, I'm gonna take it home to my wife, and he he was driving by and said, you know, last bundle there. And he stopped the bottom, and I thought... And then we got to do some of the good stuff. But I... You know, things like that, that small, that might be, you know, very non intrusive as the only man did. It's health care, you know. And there's like... There's a couple of them. We're not finding out of the park. They're basically doing the same thing, but it's it's a green one. Yeah. You have you have it now?

I don't know. I... Oftentimes, you you might see that I bring things to you of when I have to tell somebody no and I don't really know why. I'm like, maybe I'll ask the planning commission, see if they could tell me why.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Are we good,? Yeah. And then good to you? Yeah. For now, that's good. Yeah. I think we can develop it further. Good workshop. Good workshop. Yeah. Alright. With that,

the fourth thing.

Not a lot. There there are a few additional training opportunities if you guys are interested. There's there's a kinda more local one called... They're calling it the BRIC summit. It was previously the cash summit. They kinda broadened the topics and things of of this this summit of Bear River Association of Governments, kind of the one that spearheads it, and that's on October fourteenth and fifteenth. So that's that's coming up. I think it was already mentioned that there's gonna be a public open house on the transportation master plan. Can actually conflicts with that brick summit. So I won't be at that because I... I've got it presented the summit. But if you wanna beat either of those, you're more than welcome to. Let me know if you wanna sign up for that. There's another conference called the Utah Land Use Institute. It's a little bit more... I don't know how to say it. A little bit more wonky. It's it's kind of geared toward land use attorneys, but it also has planners and some planning commissioners involved and and some policymakers. But that is on October twenty second and twenty third, and online option for that one. So if you're interested... And and there's an option to only attend one day or the other day. So I'll send something out on that. I just I just saw that come across.

How about the... The only difference for work fee?

You... Yeah. I mean, if you can only make it to some of it, then then, you know, we'll just sign you up. That's... It's fine. Good.

Good teachers, but... Well, it's putting Tuesday, Wednesday, so I have students each day with all day that I can go. They have to work around my my... Get... Because let me Yeah. Get ready for a student to speak. But these kids are already during the lesson, so hey. Make sure you're ready. I'm not saying. So the fourteenth

is just kinda driving around out, and they're doing tours of local businesses. In the evening, they have some classes, like, after 05:30, I believe. And then on the fifteenth is the all day

in in the conference center doing classes. Yeah. And that's from, like, nine to four on that. Friday.

Get to... Once the work is always good for each three days a week, five PG, three days a week, three classes. So the work could be great.

Okay. Yeah. I can I can sign you up and whatever you can make it to? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Just let me know. Yeah. On the night of the fourteenth. If you can if you can make it till about as late as we're talking right now... Okay. It's going till 08:45PM. So it's gonna be at the the Riverwoods. Yeah. Right there. Yeah. You know what? It doesn't require a lot of travel. Yeah. And and you and you that are new already did it, technically, but it's good to get the training anyway. Yeah. Yeah. As I understand, everyone... All the new... The three new commissioners already did the required training for for this year, but it would it would count for... To work for next... Well, next year, you'd have to do it again, I guess. But Perfect. Thanks. Yeah. You can you can get extra credit. I mean, I'm not gonna give you an a plus, but if you get extra credit

We give that one.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And then the Utah League of Cities and Towns is another one. So there... There's kinda bam bam bam. There's a lot of opportunities coming up. But... And that one, if you can only make it one day, there's kind of a planning focused day. They always they always do that. And that one's down in Salt Lake. But... Yeah. So, yeah, let us know. Yeah. Let us know if you wanna attend any of those. So

that's about that's about all I got. Just wanted to point that out. It's a... Like, for the BRIC summit, I I actually... My wife and I got to present three years ago. We were invited as a

a young couple looking for housing and and kind of our experience with Cache County, and so it's kind of fun to to interview and do that. But Yeah. That that was a cool little panel. Yeah.

We basically talked about how we're not getting bumps anytime soon in the text. But that's...

And that... That's that's all I've got. Yeah. Alright. Thanks, guys. Would that be... Well, I don't... Hold on. One last thing Mhmm. Just so you're aware. Alright. I got a letter... I guess, a certified letter sent to Nibley City office address to me as Bites' check, which is a check on the deals. Yeah. Here, it gives horse farm from, I guess, investors. Two of them are attorneys, and the other one is a a miller, and I'm not sure which dealer he's attached to. And so got through Josh Snow, who's the spokesperson. I did nothing on it. We might have a little bit but

Yeah. Yeah. They request... They requested to be on the agenda For tonight. For tonight for final plat, which I had to kinda correct them that planning commission doesn't hear final plat. They have a preliminary plat application that will come to you when it's when it's ready, but it's just... It just wasn't ready. They they need to address some comments. So we were just waiting for them to address those comments, and then we'll get it on the agenda. So... Yeah. Yeah. They lead Frog Troy and went to Claire. So So we we we

received three FedEx letters. One addressed to Levi, one addressed to you, Claire, as vice chair, and one to mayor Jacobson. Correct. And as staff opened them to distribute, all of them had Claire's name on the letter. Yeah.

It is sometimes less money. How much money they spent? 5 or $1,000,

something like that. Yeah. What's gonna be the It's been it's been a tricky... It's been a long process in there. But Yeah. And since You'll see it. To the city, it is a public record.

It's not really published anywhere, but it's still publicly accessible. So if any of the commissioners would like to read it, let me know. Yeah. Tonight or any other time, you need to read it. I've got it in the...

I've looked up the individuals. Two of them are lawyer, and that was all.

That something to email? Yeah. I can scan an email. The email. And this is the worst track. It was done south of Yeah.

Yeah. So there is there is an application that we're currently reviewing.

Yeah. No. This is the. Yeah. We improved it at the city council denied it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think the last time you heard.

Maybe you were chair when they when they went through. That that probably... That makes some sense. No. Yeah.

Yeah. Maybe maybe. Yeah.

Sorry to tell

you. Yeah. Anything else? So I'm telling my husband everything.