Hyde Park City's Planning Commission Meeting 3.18.2026

Hey, Louis. Sounds good. He knew. We really may have stiff. It was hot outside today. We're going in the seventies. I don't like it. That means it's probably cold in August when it's in the seventies.

Gotta get vaccinated. It's not really soon.

Yeah.

You're gonna be over 80 for me to

do.

Alright. Welcome to the Hyde Park Planning Commission meeting. Today is Wednesday, 03/18/2026. It's 07:00 or a little after, and everyone's here. We have Heather Taylor, Mike Mohs, Melinda Lee, Ned Hanson, and Charlene Williams. And, Heather Taylor has offered to give our opening tonight.

Our dear kind and gracious heavenly father, we're grateful for this opportunity we have to gather together as planning and zoning and to discuss the needs and matters at hand. Please help us to think of the citizens of this beautiful city and to be able to agree and to discuss the things needed. And we're grateful for those who take time to help the city grow and develop, and we say this name is Christ. Amen. Amen. Please stand for the pledge of allegiance.

I pledge allegiance to

Thank you,

Thank you, Heather. Hey. First item is to approve the minutes from March 4, last meeting, two weeks ago.

I make a motion that we approve them as they are.

I have a motion. Second. I have a second. Commissioner Mohs made the motion. Commissioner Hansen seconded it. Any discussion? K. All in favor, say aye. Aye. Any opposed, say nay. Great. K. Next is our planning staff report, Mikkel Layton. Hello.

I do have a couple of things to report on. Firstly, the McMullen retaining wall that was previously brought up in a meeting or any land use decision for that matter cannot be appealed to the planning commission or to city council. Neither entity can excuse property owners from following code. The district court or the hearing officer are the designated appeal authorities. We will be adding definitions to the land use code to help clarify what qualifies as a structure. And then moving forward, any items that commissioners would like to propose for discussion should be submitted to the chair and to the city planner, and then we'll add them to the agenda as a discussion item and hopefully attach any kind of documentation or helpful material to them so that we can have an informed and robust discussion and be prepared for that. And then secondly, staff is working on a land disturbance permit that would focus on grading and building site prep work. The requirement for a subdivision to provide graded and reinforced lots like we talked about at our last meeting is being written and will come back as a public hearing item. We're also doing some research and making sure legalities of that are what they should be. And then thirdly, I had a good conversation with members of I'm calling them the Cache County Planners Association, but it's really it's just the planner's breakfast. And we have lots of different folks there, but we might we might move to associate ourselves at some point. But we have a monthly meeting, and it was my turn to present something. So we did a workshop on what kind of zoning criteria do you use in your town and what you know, how is that important and why do we need do we need to change and, what should we include? So we had a really good conversation, and I actually have people emailing me with follow ups on that. So we'll start working on those soon and bring them back to you for your approval.

Great. Thank you. All of those items. K. We just have one action item, which is the sign for chaos salon.

So interestingly enough, I hope you guys were all able to open the sign code.

How many pages is that? I don't know. 16.

16. I fell asleep a couple times. And the reason I wanted to include it is because when I do get a permit like this, which is I don't know if you guys are all familiar with the location. I'm sure you've seen it as you drive down the highway. I'm not sure. It takes 16 pages for folks to decide if a sign is appropriate in this in this location. I think we've got way too many sign regulations in place. And as staff having to go through 16 pages and make sure an addition to a already standing structure doesn't violate code in any way, that's a it's a just a lot of code for a small project, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. So I'm hoping that when we're done with this application this evening, you might see fit to encourage me to whittle down our sign code just a little bit. We do have a lot of MX development coming as you know, and we're gonna have signs in residential areas. I don't know how many of you remember that Seinfeld episode where Kramer lived across the street from the I think it was a chicken establishment and the sign shown in his window and gave him a sunburn. It was all very dramatic. But I think that may be the kind of situations we end up with if we don't make sure that our signs are residential area friendly when we have these mixed uses. So that may be something to consider as well. And I I intend to bring this back as a discussion item. So we're kind of discussing as we go, if you will, or just kind of noticing things as we go through this application tonight that that maybe we could do some small changes to our sign code so that it's easier for applicants, more efficient for staff, and that the applicants the folks that actually applied for the sign PIMRIT are are assigned company, and they had to call me a couple of times to get through this code to do what they wanted to do. So for professionals to use this code, it it shouldn't be that technically difficult for them. Favorite part of this code and what I'm gonna show you if, Marcus has it on the screen. What they're proposing is to add the chaos the light up chaos sign to the top of an already existing structure that has two signs on it already, and I do not believe those light up. Our code is a little ambiguous about lighted signs. It it does have a lot of wording about the kind of lights and and flashing and this and that. But as far as how bright they can be and things like that, there's not a lot of measurable stuff in there. So that's something to consider. Do we really need signs that shine all night in the dark when the business isn't open, or should these signs have a cutoff time at night when the business is closed? Those are those are parts of the discussion that we need to have. We're gonna pause for just a moment.

Leave my question. Just the next day. I don't remember last time. How

kind. So this is the application before us. Chaos Beauty wants to add a lighted structural sign to an existing pole. I was not able to find sign permits or applications for the original signs and polls. That just makes me think that they've been there for for some time. And my favorite part of the code is of this sign code is 12.9. It's signs allowed on private property with and without permits. And when you get to the bottom of all of the tables and caveats for how big your sign can be depending on how big your lot is and how big your business is. At the very bottom, it says all freestanding and monument signs shall have a minimum setback of 20 feet from the front property line. The planning commission shall have the ability to manipulate the placement of signs based on existing signs on adjacent parcels and to allow equal visibility to all signs. So this line leads me to believe that in this section of code, you folks have the ability to make some calls. The very last line of this section says the planning commission may modify or be more restrictive on the above requirements for extraordinary circumstances in existing business areas, especially via the master sign plan. And if you read about the master sign plan, what it says is if there's more than one business on a property, that that those business owners need to coordinate themselves and come up with a master sign plan. We're all putting our signs together in this way. So, possibly, the folks that already have the sign up did so, but now we wanna add a third. And so Chaos Beauty rents leases their space. So for them to have a master sign plan, the owner of the property needs to initiate the process and then meet with all of those property owners so they can decide what their master sign plan is. According to this, I believe you folks have the ability to modify the above requirements, so which includes the process for existing businesses, which is what this is, especially the master sign plan. So So what I'm asking tonight is that you use these extraordinary powers you have been granted to approve this sign permit as the master sign plan for this parcel. And even though the sign that is requested is a little over the size, for the size of the parcel and the frontage and the size of the business, it fits the sign structure that's there. It would kind of be weird to have a a smaller sign on top of those bigger signs. So, aesthetically, I I think this is better. Structurally, the building department will determine if it's all fine, because it does require a building permit. But what I would like is planning commission's approval that this sign deviates a little bit from our sign code to allow a bigger sign on this parcel and to be part of the master sign.

K.

Questions, comments, or concerns?

So we're not changing all signs, just this particular sign. Just considering this particular application.

So are you at so they have their package showing the rendering of the sign that they wanna do. Can you expect Are you asking to be bigger than that? No. That's their application.

Okay. And the specs are in there. Okay. And according to these 16 pages of code, this sign is just a little too big.

Okay. I think it looks great aesthetically. I have had to create signs in the past, and it's a lot of work.

It it's a structure. It has to be balanced. It looks balanced. To be sturdy. Right? And

I yeah. It's not egregious in any way. The other two don't light up below it though? I don't believe so. They're just painted something. Is there a time to have it go off, like, even if it was midnight? So yeah. I'm under pressure to find. I mean, I'm being a past business owner, I'm all for advertising even at one in the morning. I mean, you'd be surprised to people driving and going, oh, there's a beauty shop there. I didn't know that. But I do see the benefit of it turning off, but they're the ones paying the bill. So if they wanna pay the bill And there are MX

correct me if I'm wrong. There are MX developments in this general vicinity. I don't think they're exactly next door to this property.

Can you show us where it is? Yeah. I'll pull it up. I I did the math real quick. It's weird and 57.5

square feet. What is the maximum for that frontage? Well, let's look at the maximum total sign area per lot by zoning district chart. Shall we? Oh, fun. Because this is the kind of thing that I have to evaluate when a sign permit comes in. And sign for my teacher. I feel like there could be a simpler chart or graph to help guide us in what size our signs should be along the highway. But this one, in all commercial zoning districts, the maximum number of total square feet of the signs says 50. Percentage of ground floor area of the principal building, it can be 3%. Does it have to be both? The square feet of signage per linear foot or or street frontage, which is point seven five square feet. So you can have point seven five square feet of sign per linear foot of street frontage, and it can only be 3%, and the max it can be is 50. 50 square feet. Is it and or? Is it all? I'm not exactly sure. I probably just need to spend more time deep diving into this code. Is it the

Pink one. The top on the left?

I'm sorry. Ask your question again. Or on the right?

It's the pink one on the right. Pink one on the mouse. The sign's approximately

there. The right on the right. So what is the frontage of that property?

Number.

Out of those two calculations that were read, which one allows the greater amount? What's the greater amount allowed?

So without doing the math, I would have to say, I'm gonna go down below to other regulations. It says where allowed signage is under 200 square feet, freestanding and monument signs shall not exceed 50% of the total allowed squared footage for the total lot application. And I'm not sure what that means.

Is there a lot application information?

Can we can we put put this off to the next meeting when we and do the math so we have, like, know what are we doing three times the size that it could be per code, or is it 50% bigger? Well, you you did you say somehow you did a calculation because you said it's just a little bit over. It is. And the calculation

that we looked at was the square footage of the sign and the size that's allowed in the commercial zone because there's stipulations up here as well that talk about animated signs can't be bigger than a 100 square feet, lighted signs. Where is it? They're not limited by size. They're limited by illumination. And then the biggest one is that all freestanding and monument signs have a minimum setback of 20 feet from the front property line. And then there's also a section about maximum height for signs along Highway 91.

What is the maximum height? The maximum height okay.

Signs along all other streets in commercial industrial zones shall not exceed eight feet from the surface of the ground where the sign is planted. I don't feel like this one's a monument sign. Monument sign. The maximum height for freestanding signs along Highway 91 shall not exceed the height height of the building they serve, which this one does not. So the height wasn't an issue. It was the square feet

Like, up to 67 and a half is what I calculated.

And what's the code supposed to be? Okay. Max is, like, supposed to be depends on the kind of sign. So per code, it's supposed to be 50 square feet?

Yes. We're at a 157.

Wow.

That's both both sides, I think.

But that's where this catch all clause is important because it gives the planning commission the ability if we're looking at existing developments or existing signs. There's flexibility there for the planning commission to look at something and flex a little bit in the code to try and accommodate existing signage as much as possible.

And that's what I'm asking. Instead of going through code and breaking down every little caveat for this sign, can we look at the application and with reasonable eyes say, this sign is appropriate for this spot as part of this master sign plan and this location.

How does it fit the illumination rule?

The illumination, if you go to the application, I believe they get a very small number in the rooms. That was right up here.

Oh, wait a minute. They say here, it's not a 157. What am I talking about? That's 250. It says 96 here. Okay.

Total

sign area? But I went by the sign height and the sign length. If you multiply those together, it's a

well, it looks to me it's, like, slightly over a 100.

Well, that's a little bit of math. There's a mapping in my brain. There's not Well, it's 17,

and then on the bottom and it looks it doesn't list the height, but it looks like it's Yeah. It's seven foot nine feet. No. The I mean, just at the lower the the existing sign. And then it's I don't see. And then it's four by eight on the upper one, on the new one.

So I think it's We'll do 25 by beauty

sign, or are we looking at the whole Nope. We're just looking at the chaos beauty sign. Okay.

Which is the addition. Right? Mhmm. Okay. Which four feet

Yeah. The addition is only 32 feet. The existing sign is probably 32 square feet. It's a four by eight. Four by eight?

That's what I see. Four by eight. Yeah.

But the existing one is 17 and a half by looks like four. It doesn't show, but it shows two foot. So we're we're under the 40 or the 50 maximum anyway. Well, if you're considering just the new sign, but because they're adding to it, do we have to consider The whole sign? And I believe it is two sided. So

it's But with that clause by two or times two. With the clause, we could over Yes.

And then we can look at the ordinance.

And then we can see if the ordinance needs or could possibly be Simplifying. Be simplified or combined. Maybe some of these things just need to be all combined in the paragraph to say it must meet the following conditions. It can't be bigger than this. It can't be taller than the building. It has to meet this setback. And

I'm sure that the sign does not get in the way of the power lines. Yeah. I was I saw that. It's getting kinda close. That's the only other thing I'd be worried about. I'm still a keeper of aluminum. Which isn't my concern. It's really about the insides.

Unless it's in these little Which will have a building inspector Got a cabinet. But it does building inspector. But it's not a nation would be a bigger deal in time of day that it's on.

Shows what the colors are, but it doesn't show you the

the actual I'm gonna make a motion that we accept that we recommend. Is it recommend or approve?

Approve. It's approve.

I make a motion that we approve the application for the chaos sign chaos beauty sign.

Can I ask one more question, though? Because I'm still concerned about elimination. Have more discussion after the Yeah. Give me a minute. If if there's a second, then I can call for discussion. Yep. I'll second the motion. K. We have commissioner Moe's made a motion and commissioner Taylor seconded that. So discussion now. Charlene?

Elimination part in the application. Did you reference elimination

in the code? It's probably in I did. And I did go through this code with the applicant, and I believe he put the Lumens on It may be in the building perm is that the building?

I mean, I'm seeing a loo lots of Lumen. I'm not there.

But that can be a condition of approval as much as I don't like those that the Lumen count is met if we wanna make sure.

Oh, because we're bending the rule. Because we're

not bending, but adjusting. Mhmm. Yep. If we're adjusting it, since we have that huge power, if we flex that power, can we also put the condition of time of day that it stays on?

We can.

As long as it's from the balance or

As as long as it's what? Sorry. So here is the balance of the ordnance. Here's what the ordinance says. Neither the direct nor reflected light from any light source shall create a traffic hazard or distraction to operators of motor vehicles on public thoroughfares. Such light shall not blink, flash, scintillate, flicker, vary in intensity or color, or use electrical pulsations with the exception of those approved by conditional use. Maximum illumination is 3,000 NIT in the daytime with an auto dimmer after dark and a maximum nighttime illumination of 500 n I t. So we could Can we just give them those stipulations? With the stipulations that it follow lighting code for signs. Yes.

Has this been reviewed by the city's engineer? Because I don't think they did their calculations right.

It has not been reviewed by the engineer or the building department yet. This is the very first hoop that they're gonna jump through is does is land use

okay with what they're doing? Okay. So we look at certain things. The building department looks at different things.

So It hasn't been to a DRC meeting yet. Because

his his calculations on the poll. It it seems it's just a little odd that you'd have a sign there that now because you put this bigger thing on top, it makes I mean, that a wind load wise, that is way worse than down lower, obviously. And so they've got enough extra in the pole that's sitting there that they can, like, basically double or maybe even more the loads that go into the poll. So you had a poll that was either super overdesigned the first time

or the calculations aren't right this time. And that's what the building department thinks, that it was built for a different purpose. Okay. And then they used it as a as a sign pull because it was so sturdy. Okay. They do have a building application in the portal. Okay. It will have to be reviewed for structural integrity and all, and that it meets building code, and that it's away from power lines and all of that stuff by the building department and the engineering department at that time. Because his calculations only show the new, not the old. Right. So that's long. You have to have both. And I should have pulled the building permit for you guys to see It's a a few more pages. If it's gonna happen, then I'm not gonna It will. Really, all my part is is to make sure that we have considered that it's part of a master sign plan and that we're okay with going a little bit outside of the size requirements because of the way that it looks aesthetically on.

So, Mike, do you want to amend your motion? Did you make the motion?

I'm getting a motion to accept the

the As is approve. Yeah. Do you wanna add anything to it based on what she said as far as, like, making sure the lighting that it violation code? Even though we're making exceptions in some areas, we're not making an exception on the lighting part.

I don't think they're asking for an exception to that, are they? All we're doing is approving where it is. Land use part. Where The lighting part is something totally different. That's a code violation that's handled by a totally different department. It So they have to comply with that no matter what? They they really do. Okay. What all we're asking is,

that the planning commission use their power to modify the requirement that a new master sign plan be devised and that this application would serve as the master sign plan and that the chaos sign itself is approved to be installed.

So your motion probably still stands. Do I need to add that one? To

amend my my motion to approve the sign permit?

To say that

And make that plan the master sign plan for

that parcel? I think that would be a good idea for chaos law.

K. Because all we're doing is sign placement and sign allowability. We're not Correct. Nothing about lumens or anything like that. Color. Nothing like that. The planning commission's involvement.

The planning commission's role is to look at how this complies with and blends with existing uses around it. The engineers worry about the numbers and the calculations and if it's gonna stand the test of time or not.

And who does who does the light movement stuff? The engineers too? The building department.

Alright. So you're keeping your motion, or you're you're amending it to state about the master sign plan?

Yes. That's all I'm adding to it is that it that plan then becomes the master sign plan for the that parcel.

Thank you. K. So we have an amended motion. Now do we have a second on the amendment on the amended motion? I will second that. K. So commissioner Moe's made the amended motion. Commissioner Taylor has seconded the amended motion. Is there any further discussion at this point? K. All in favor, say aye. Aye. Any opposed, say nay. K. That was

unanimous. What you led into this is 16 pages that perhaps when this code came up, something was in how much paralysis?

Well, then maybe it was adopted from a larger municipality that has a more extensive use of signs.

Well but Simplified.

I think it could use a little workshop. You know? Maybe maybe in the m around the the MX zone, we need some other verifications, and maybe what is along the highway could be a little more a little more than what we allow along the pathway, for example. Is go ahead. I'm sorry.

We did talk about amending this because even the signs that the schools put out on their fences require permit according to this, and they're oversized according to this. And It's own. I I get that we do want an area that did doesn't wanna be full of signs everywhere, you know, that assigned forest, so to speak. But that's the way schools communicate with parents. They're picking up their kids. Oh, I see a sign that you're gonna have a a bakery, a cookie sale or something. Cookies? No. Is that cookie? Leave those over there. This is Take those over there or whatever. But he yes. I think looking at it with new eyes would be valuable.

Is it is it typical that sign permits come to the planning commission or just some, do you think? Varied.

It's it's really not. Their their approving body is DRC. But in this case It was a good question. Ask you know, my initial request was, well, according to code, we need a master sign plan. And the lady from Chaos Beauty Shop was like, okay. What do I need to do to do a master sign plan? So we talked about, well, we need the property owner to have an owner's consent form, and then all of you need to meet together and decide. And she's like, oh, no. Well, maybe I don't need this sign so much after all. And I don't think it should be that difficult for commercial businesses and business owners to do a thing. And so I I used this what are we calling this? It's not a rip cord. It's a special circumstance part of this. Yeah. And oddly enough, I haven't found it in any other code but sign code, which gives planning commission the opportunity to make some calls. And so that's the only reason why it's before you today. Normally, you wouldn't we would just approve it administratively and make sure DRC was okay with it and move forward. So my intention is to get this special permission from planning commission and then start the process at DRC, have engineering building, everybody look at it like they're supposed to, approve it for land use, and then let them get their building. It's already a big process as it is. I just feel like it's a little too much, and we're asking a lot of our commercial business owners at this point or maybe just this particular one.

Well, I I do think we do we need to relook this. I think some of it is too stringent. Some things require just another word, maybe an and or an or between the different

Stipulations

or Yeah. The different measurements there. Is it I agree. Is it 50 square feet, or is it 74.7 75% of this frontage? Or is it Or is it the most lenient? Or is it the square footage of the property? I mean so and then I know that I know there are signs out there that shouldn't be there according to code. According to code. But they're not so nobody's complaining about them. Mhmm. So, you know, the the churches right now have signs in front of them. Come worship with us on on Easter Sunday. Do those require a permit? There is According to it. Yes. They probably do. Or signs in the institutional zone. Yeah. And there's another church that has big banners that they put out. Mhmm. Okay. Well, are we gonna enforce it or not? Or are we gonna change it so that it makes more sense?

And do the sign codes apply to all signs? Like, if the kids put up a sign at the school, does that have to it all has to There's there's a whole section about temporary sign. You guys have temporary sign.

You can't even put a sign in your window unless it conforms with the with this. Oh.

Yeah. This code's pretty onerous. Yeah. The other thing that we need to look at is the fees because right now, we only have one fee for sign permits. There's been several people who've come into the city to try to get a temporary sign permit, and they see they gotta pay $250. Yeah. And they're like, I'm gonna go check on those signs, and then we find them around town a few days later. Yeah. And they're not offensive. What's the They're not Are they paying the $250? For all those I plead the fifth. We wait. Yeah.

But Miss Hyde Park, do we have a sign for do we have a an application put in for that?

You need to ask a certain member of the city council about that one. But the point is we agree with you. Yeah. And this whole thing needs an update, so we're gonna be working on that. We could, like control the portion after those little kids that hold up the lemonade sign.

You know, let's keep them in the tub. Just realize they're gonna put you in cuffs too because of all the signs. Go there.

Health health and health and safety is is the reason we have this. Right? Not Like I did in the workshop. Not to keep our thumb on every member of the community and and police each other. So health and safety is for are these signs safe, and and are they out of the off the sidewalk and out of the right of way? Those kind of things are is what matters most. And so, yeah, this is definitely a topic I think that needs a workshop, and input will be requested.

Yeah. One other comment. This is a great example of how the Utah land use code is supposed to work. I mean, it's not a great example now, but it will be because, really, the way these these are just like any other land use regulation. The The planning commission and the city staff should work on these codes and workshop them and massage them and get them where we think it's going to be something positive for the community. City council approves the code, and then the city staff administers it. And in theory, would we would never have to bring another sign back to the planning commission again because you're happy with the code. We're happy with the code, and then we can just make sure everybody is is following the rules that we've set forward and we're happy with. So this is gonna be a great exercise for us.

Yeah. I like it. I I think it's a hard one to keep current. I just think everything changes. You know? Digital signs now are not what digital signs were twenty years ago. You talked about, like, the flashing lights or, like, that's totally what any digital sign is. The image changes all the time. And so, yeah, I think it's outdated.

I think where we have mixed use now, we're gonna have to consider location, location, location. Three rules of real estate, it'll have to be the three rules of science. So we've got people like you say, people's windows, if we've got if people can't open the blinds at all, where before that wasn't even an issue because there wasn't mixed use. Right? So that wouldn't have even been an issue for the prior sign code, but now we would need to address that because you've got a sign in an area that's also residential, mixed use. That should probably have different rules from a commercial zone that's has no residential next to it. Yeah. Earlier today, Mikel said, like, the highway might be one set of rules and

mixed use would be another another set, and then residential might be another set. So you can have your lemonade sign if you want them to have their lemonade sign. Yeah.

Lemonade.

Alright. I think we're done with chaos salon. Thank you. But we expect to see that as a discussion item or a workshop or something. What's that?

Appropriate names is to sign those up too. Yeah. Yeah.

K. So then our last item is a discussion, and it's home occupations. I know a little bit about this. I was in today and talked to Dania. She does our business licensing. And in the past, we've had every business come and get a license, and then they changed it to only those that have an impact need a license because the state made it so you cannot charge to businesses that don't have an impact. You can't make you can you can have them have to get a license, but you can't charge them for that license. So then we're paying to track things that we don't get any reimbursement for. Anyway, so she's proposing that we don't have those or right now, we don't have them. Right now, she's not having them pay. I mean, she's just not having them get a license. She can't have them pay, but she's not having them get a license right now if they don't have an impact. She's fine to go either way that we think it needs to be if you want everybody to get a license or just those that have an impact get a license. But the whole ordinance in general, she would love feedback on. Sorry. I should have asked for your report first. Well,

I technically should have Dania give the report, but she's not here, and public hearings are heard at planning commission. And so that's why I wanted just to for you guys to look through this ordinance first before we bring it for a public hearing. There's I don't know the exact changes that were made. I this isn't the red line version. Right? This is the is this the current or the final

to be replaced? This is gonna be current. I'm using the impact. What do you mean by impact?

So when we're talking about impact, we're talking about, is traffic coming. Right? Are customers coming to the site? Are they having to add additional infrastructure? Do they have to provide buffer screening, parking? Is there gonna be extra trash pickup? Any Extra deliveries. Mhmm. Things that would normally maybe require an impact fee or improvements of some kind. When it's a home occup a true home occupation, I think we defined it as one customer at a time, like maybe getting your nails done or your hair done Mhmm. Or your taxes done, or contractor style where you are at home running your business on your laptop and you leave your home to go and do the thing

in person somewhere else. Like a realtor might do.

Right. Right. And we don't think we should enforce

that business license to those people. That's the question. Should we be tracking everybody who's running a business so that we're aware of where businesses are happening and where maybe zones where there's a lot of home occupation, maybe that's where the commercial starts to where we start to allow that. It would give information. Right? It would give us statistics for what's going on in our city. How many businesses do we have in our city that are home occupations? There's no way to know that unless you're tracking that. So I think the question is, do we need to? Is it something that that we want to to spend time on, or is that something that we're not too concerned about and people that have don't that that maybe DRC determines there's no impact, they don't have to get a license? Or do we still want them to have some kind of acknowledgment? Some of them need a license. Right? In order to get your discount at your supplier, you have to show you have a business license. Or to have additional insurance on your home for what you're doing there, you have to show you have a business license. And the ones that want one can come and get one that way. Or we're kind of open to suggestion on all of that. Oh,

what is the financial impact of not getting a license? Are there any taxes that come to the directly to the city?

Not necessarily because the majority of your home based businesses aren't really selling products. K. Services. Let me correct that. The majority that are doing it and don't need a license by the state code definition are providing a service they're not selling. If they're selling a product from the home, then, yes, they have to get a business license anyway. And so the city is not necessarily losing out on any tax revenue or something Mhmm. When these service based businesses don't get a business license. And the other implication here is I mean, me, I like data. I wanna know what people are up to because that's what we put in our our general plan and our long term plans and our road plans. We wanna know if we've got people coming and going to businesses, but we cannot charge a fee, and so then it becomes something that the taxpayers in general have to fund, the application process, the tracking it, the software that we're gonna use. And so that's why this is a question.

It looks like it's a criminal penalty at the end. Mhmm. 4.forney.ofive.

There's a word that Donya felt was missing there. Or, actually, Melinda is the one who pointed that out. It should say any person operating a business with impact in a residential zone without a license as a truck. So But if I got that, I'm like, that's a little steep. Yeah. That may be something we need to add there. But as you know, businesses grow and change. And if if we're not keeping track of where our businesses are and they do grow and change Could be a problem. Will grow and change. And if we don't even know they're there, there's no way to require them to come into compliance with with a business license that they don't have to have.

Yes. As well. I think we need to track it. And I am a personal I can personally testify of this. I have a salon in my home, and I pay for a business license. I don't work full time. It's one person. It's not impacted. I thought I had to have a business license for Hyde Park, so I have paid it for twelve years. But I also have been in this industry thirty years to where I have seen homes where they say they're not impacted, but it grows. And I have neighbors that do daycare and preschool, and I wanna be notified of that because that's a problem when drop off happens and pickup happens. Even dog grooming and dog boarding and dog breeding, I think that should be tracked. I think neighbors should be notified because I know I've gotten emails from the city. Like, I don't know what validates that, but when there's a preschool going in,

sometimes you're you get a letter from the city. A lot of times, a preschool needs a conditional use permit.

But they're notifying, like, so they're like, saying, do you have any issues with this? Like, I've gotten letters saying Sure. Do you have an issue with this? Because you were within 300 Probably. Of where they were wanting And I think for Hyde Park and where you buy a home, I think it's good to be aware and to track. That's me personally.

I think we should keep dibs on it. Commissioner Hanson?

I mean, I think I I do think you need the data, and and I guess I'm thinking of something that maybe can satisfy both of these that you can have a self certification kind of a thing where you have a a letter that or a checklist that you make them go down and check all off and then sign that their their their businesses that way. So and and but that you don't necessarily have to put it in the computer. You could just have it in a file. Every year, they have to do this. And if otherwise, they have to get a a building business permit. So that would remind them, hey. Oh, now I'm getting traffic more than such and such. I should be getting a permit. And that's in their mind as the business grows. So

My or one of the other things to consider is when you get a business license, it comes with a building department inspection and a fire inspection. And so whether you have impact or not, if you're doing a thing, whatever that thing might be, health and safety. Right? Does is fire department okay with with this business that you're running in there, and is it meet building codes still for what's happening? I I don't I don't know that there would be enough businesses that it would put a real big burden on the city or the applicants to pay for those inspections and get a license even if they didn't have impact. I think it would be good for tracking purse purposes, and I think it would be a nod toward health and safety that anybody who's running a business in their home got their inspection, and everything's on the up and up. Every year? Well, right now when they first apply. Right now, when you get a business license in Hyde Park, it's automatically renewed every year. And Mhmm. What I've what I've been pestering Marcus about is that we have many businesses that have expanded, that have grown, that have changed their use, or that have made some kind of pivot that really doesn't align with either with city code or that they should have had to put in improvements with what they're doing. And by just auto renewing commercial business license, I'm I have no beef with the home I think one and done maybe for home occupations, but for commercial business licenses, that's not what we're considering tonight. We we need a renewal process for sure. Matt, it seems like there's a letter

I mean, I I I worked out of my home for twenty years. So I I mean, something with the fire department that I had to check every year. I can't remember if it came with the the county business or county thing or whether go. Or what came with the business license from the city that I had to fill out and mail send back in. You know, nothing's changed. I haven't increased No. No. It was a check. If I had to go down the checklist, there was about a 100 things on it. Do I have a fire extinguisher? Okay. I think it's on the business license renewal. Yeah. And it it could be a similar thing that was applies to this that you had the mail in. Mhmm. And I don't I doubt anybody put it in a computer. They probably just put it in a file. And I don't I never had a fire department ever come to my house or building inspector. Same with me. But

I do think that it would be an easy way for you to track, do something similar to the checklist that goes out from the fire department. K. But if it's going if it's a piece of paper going in a file, we're not actually tracking it. No. We we will track it because we have that software capability now. Yeah. And so I don't wanna I don't wanna see the mail going back and forth either because you're spending a dollar every time you mail something back. Do it all online, and the renewal

thing will be emailed to them online, and they'll return it Yeah. In the portal, and it'll be I've never got an email. It's always been a letter. So is that gonna change? It it is going to change. Okay.

But okay. Let's take Heather's business. That's still a business with an impact, isn't it? Even if she just has one person coming at a time. I don't think it is because how do you know if you have one visitor?

So

I'm reading that in front of me. Can you go up to that part where it defines business with impact and business without an impact? She said earlier that if it was just one, that wasn't me. Well, let's let's make sure that we're quoting code and not Home occupation with impact. A business that takes place within a red residential zone conducted by a resident residing in a home that creates a material impact to the residential neighborhood by having patrons visit the permit premises. Home occupation without impact, a business that takes place within a residential zone conducted by a resident residing in a home that creates no impact to the residential neighborhood since no patrons visit the premises.

This is the new this is the proposal. Right? Yeah. And I believe those definitions are pulled from that new state code.

But not the other one.

Not the old one. Yeah. And so, Heather, I guess, for your business where you have one client a day, maybe you would have impact would be, like, minimal impact. So it's not material

then. Do we know what material is Material impact is to find that Anyone visiting is material Mhmm. Apparently, yeah, by having persons visit the premises.

I have no problem. I mean, our business license is $40, I think. Like, it's not Yeah. It's it's not a big deal for me personally. Now if that raise is super duper high, then, yeah, I probably

I don't do a lot of hair. So And we do want to encourage people to participate. Yeah. We wanna encourage people to get their business license. And if they're I like having a business license. A a very high fee discourages people. Right. I because how would you know? I mean, how many people right now are conducting businesses,

especially if it's one person? You don't know. My mom could show up, and I could do her hair. And is that a business? I mean,

how do you define that? For it. Well and Yeah. The good news is

my mom. Funny.

The good news is, these are fees. Right? And fees are different than taxes. A tax, the city can levy for a general purpose, like, you know, our general general fund taxes, others. But fees have to be specifically tied back to the service that we're putting in. I learned this because my sister-in-law

is in North Logan. She does charge tax. So the city collects tax, and tax commissioner because I didn't know you paid tax on service because hair does not have a tax. Mhmm. So I was worried, but sewing

requires a tax. Well, it's because she turns around and sells that piece that she's made back to whoever the client. Times, like, I've hired her and bought the material.

You are paying tax on her service. Mhmm. I guess teachers would have to charge tax. It depends. It's a material good. I called. She uses thread. Yeah. She's using material. Like, hair is not Different kind of material. Hair. You gotta use the product, the color, the I know. But I pay tax on that too. I I have a tax ID. It's very different. I did research. I called the tax commissioner. Sewing is taxed, and it goes back to the city. Mhmm.

But, anyway, the fees, they're only going to rise proportional to the cost that it costs the city to administer the program. Right? And so we like to keep these fees as static as possible. You know, try not to go crazy with buying some kind of really fancy software or, like, you know, some new vehicle that we're gonna go around and police all the business licenses with, so everybody's fee is gonna go up. Now it's not the goal here. The goal is just to say, how much money do we need to collect per business license to reasonably offset the cost that it takes for us to track these things, create a spreadsheet, report back to the state if there's any reporting we have to do, etcetera, etcetera.

But we also cannot charge the ones who have to have a license. We can't charge them more to cover our inspections and fire department going to those that we just

decide to license. So the fee has to be based on the individual. The math has to be done based on how it impacts that person or that case. We can't say, well, we don't wanna charge the the elderly populations. We don't want them to pay anything, so we're gonna charge extra to the young kids who come in for business license. You can't do that. House of uniform.

So, I mean, if we if we are saying we're tracking everybody, where are you saying that money should come from then? Because I I mean, I I like numbers too. I like tracking all sorts of things. But Well and I'll put a pause on that because that's more of the job at the city council. Right? They're They're over budget. They're over the budget. And so that's the discussion that

I'm gonna have with them is is this something you want the general taxpayer dollars to be subsidized? And because that's what it's gonna end up being. Right. It's this question for the planning commission is more to consider, you know, as you're looking at the neighborhoods and the composition of the city, do we wanna have a tighter a tighter grip's the wrong word because, again, we can't really regulate these things. But do we wanna have

a better snapshot of the business happening in the city? That's essentially what this would provide. I think data data is the new goal. No one will argue that, but I think a desire for data is not a legitimate government purpose. I think if it doesn't have an impact on the health and the safety and the traffic and other things in the community, then I think it's not our business. That's I'm probably only only one that thinks that, but that's my opinion.

Well, I guess when I was in the office, it just seemed like when we charged people for that inspection, it was over a $100 to have I think the building department go out and the fire department go out. Fire department is 50 and the Building's 50. Department. Is that for commercial,

or is that for yeah. Residential

doesn't have that. That's their general inspection rates for the fire department and the the building department. If they if it's, like, a specific type of inspection you need for a permit or something, they'll have a rate based on that, how thorough that inspection needs to be. But if they're showing up to a occup like, a short term rental, we do a a licensing program for Airbnbs. That's just the $50 for them to show up and do general inspection.

So one with no impact, they wouldn't have to get

license plate definitions? Pay the fee. Yeah. This is the new code being proposed. So those are new definitions.

I think having one visitor is not an impact. I agree. I think that we kind of need to be a little bit more specific. Sure. That may that may be coming from the state. Okay. Is that coming from the state? Pretty sure these are directly from the new state code. And do we have to take that? May we not adjust that?

That's a question probably for the city attorney. Okay.

Because I just think one person that is not impacting. But if it was two or more, three or more but then I just think You're like one person a day or one person at a time at a time. Like, if you have one car parked in your driveway.

I don't know. You have 30 people coming every day, that's well, I know. An endless Me, personally, I don't do 30 people. Right. So it could be at a time not to exceed x number. I would say not to exceed. K. I think at a time. I mean I have a feeling this was litigated, and that's usually why state code ends up the way it does.

But we can definitely find out. We'll check these definitions, and we'll also check to see if there's a further explanation of material impact. Like, if patrons visiting the premises means type of vehicle or number of vehicles or something. Because I think of, like, a Pampered Chef party or

I mean, is that a business?

It is for the

person selling the Pampered Chef, but But they go they usually don't have it at their own home. I know. Usually go to someone else's house. Get you to have the party. Yeah. So then you have 30 cars outside your house. That's more impactful than one Right. But that's no different than a bridal shower. Yeah. Exactly. The one time that's not it ongoing Yeah. Every day. Unless you're a big sucker. There's a there's another thing.

I mean, there are some salons. I'll use salon as a thing where they have a sign out. It's open. It's like a great clips. It's open for business. I think that is an impact. But if it's, like, appointment only, one person, I think that's no impact. If you're an accountant, one person. But if it's, like, 10 clients coming and you have that's an impact.

That's how I would view it. That tutors and has one person Yeah. At a time here and there. Same thing. Piano lists. Yeah. Yeah. Fortunately,

that's yeah. I think that's directly from

the legislative. I think it's decisions that's been done at the state level. About. So And so what our question we should ask is, can we be more restrictive, or can we be less restrictive? Yeah. Which one applies in this? Which one applies in this particular law, this code?

I doubt that we can be more restrictive.

And my guess would be we can be less restrictive.

Can you slide down? There's something I think it's the number seven on the next page, conditions. Nope. It is number

Section eight.

Oh, you like the trailers? What do you like?

No. It was can't have more than so many visits via deliveries by commercial vehicle. It's like five a week or something. Week. I'm thinking It's number five. So I need to get a business license for my Amazon orders. Right. Yeah. I'm thinking everyone's getting think about it. That that

I'm not sure how that I guess the difference is it's commercial delivery. We we do have a couple homes in Hyde Park that get, like, the Amazon truck showing up, but they're unloading the entire truck. It's not just a couple packages. The guy gets back from his truck, and he leaves. It's like They're unloading businesses. And there's a couple that have semi trucks showing up, and we're those are against the code, and we're doing something about those ones. But that's, I think, what a commercial delivery the difference between a household delivery and a commercial delivery. You're talking about the entire truck versus one or two packages from the truck. This is Amazon. You never seen my wife on Amazon.

I was gonna say That is not the city's problem.

Mhmm. Plus, all those sales from Amazon

bring in sales tax. Right. Yes. If you can't if you can't shop local, shop online. Right? That's right.

Does the city get sales Yes. I did not know that. Yes. The sales tax for online sales are generated based on where you location. Your point of sale. Yep. That's good to know.

That's right. I changed Shop away.

I give a lot of money to the system. My hair business is nothing compared to Amazon. Before.

So until we get some real commercial business going on here, feel guilt free shopping on Amazon.

So

Please take that out of the minute.

You can even Strike that. You can even go on sam'sclub.com

and That's it. Or costco.com

and then have them shipped to your house. So I think we kind of got off of that Term. What are we trying to pass? Like, do we want to keep businesses? This is the discussion item. This is a proposed

this is a proposed ordinance that Dania has put out there. She's over the business licensing. Okay. So look it over. What do you like? What do you not like?

If you have specific recommendations or questions or comments, please email them to myself, Mikael.

We can run those through the city attorney or through Dania. She knows a lot more about this than we do. I would ask about the one car. K. I I would just be a little bit more specific. That's gonna clear up a lot of piano lessons, private swim lessons, accounting. I mean, appointment only clients. This talked about swim lessons.

It did. I see. A few specifics in here. Like, there's specifics on preschools and daycares.

Oh, yeah. There's swim lessons at the top. I've seen some swim lesson places like in North Logan that have lines of cards, but it's because they're doing groups versus, I would imagine, if you have teaching one family, that's totally different than when you say this hour, I you know, and you see 10 cars lined along 1,600

going on up in their swims. Oh, my neighbor did swim lessons, and it was a lot of people. It was groups. So so it's more than one client. Oh, yeah. 15 kids.

When is that when I was a kid? Went to the neighbor's house with, like, 10 other kids and did swim lessons from the pool.

They don't do it anymore, but they did.

Alright. Anything else on home occupations from commissioners?

I think the number of people that I also think frequency makes a difference too. Shouldn't be a factor.

K. Because the next time we see this, it'll be a public hearing.

Correct. So if you have questions or suggestions, definitely shoot us an email so that we can get all that information resolved

before Are fees gonna change?

Possibly. Fees are I don't believe fees are part of the proposal. Okay. We're not proposing to change the fees at this time. But they'd have to if 300 new places applied. Right? Then it would be have to be proportionate to the amount of labor

and time for the And in theory, the $40, even if we had 20 new businesses show up and they if they all pay their $40, we should be fine.

It should be. When's the hearing on this one?

I think the earliest no. I believe the posting is the fifteenth of next month, April 15. So your next meeting.

Yeah. Which brings us to the last item. Our next meeting is April 15. Too many of us are gone over April 1, so no meeting on April 1. Next meeting is April 15. And looking ahead, too many are gone that May. I think all of you, except me, are gone that May, so we won't have a meeting until the May as well.

Only one meeting in May. Got it. Well, is there five Wednesdays in April? Because we couldn't can you not No.

It's a first and third that we We always just do first and third. Well yeah. Until it posted at the beginning of the year. Did the meeting schedule at the beginning.

Okay. No. There can be additional meetings called if necessary, but that might be better used for, like, a work session. We talked about workshopping the sign ordinance. Maybe that's the day that we do that.

But next week, we have a workshop at six with city council. Mhmm. You guys are aware of that? Like, every fourth Wednesday from six to seven before city council's meeting at seven,

they have set that up too. Every fourth Wednesday would be a workshop with the planning commission and the city council. Yep. I steal a little bit of time to do training on state code basics, and then we take the rest of the time to talk about general plan sections. And we're talking land use next week again. Yeah. And the training parts are always really good.

K. Without any can't even think of the word. We're going business. Yeah. Any other business? No objections.

We will adjourn. Look at these. He's each he's reaching for it already. I have to make a motion. We adjourn. I second.