Cache County Council Special Workshop Meeting – 09-24-2025

Buddy. We'll we'll go ahead and get started. It's 03:00. Thank you everyone for being here, and I wanna especially recognize representative Peterson for being here. Thank you. I'm sure there's other dignitaries will. Maybe should we introduce everybody that's here? Okay. Why don't we are all the county council. We don't need to introduce us, do we? We have name tagged. We have name tagged. You know who we are. Okay. Let's go ahead and have our planning commission introduce themselves and then we'll let everyone in the audience introduce themselves so that we know who's here.

So let's

Chris Sands. Thank you. Okay. Andrew, you can introduce yourself. Okay. We'll just go down the road. K. Angie, why don't you Yeah. Angie Sutterquist,

interim director of development services.

Scott Buck, regional engineer for water rights. K.

Corbin, you can tell us who you are. Yeah, be careful what you say. Great. Thank you everybody. This is, Andrew Crane, our attorney, one of our attorneys at the here at the county. He's here to help us. So I'm gonna end. We have, Connor who from our planning planning department. K. Nolan, I'll just turn the time over to you to run this meeting because I am not in charge.

So just a little bit of background. I spent a lot of time on planning and zoning. Love these guys and have a lot of respect to all the time they put in. Some of these guys like Chris Sands has been there. How long, Chris? Eighteen years. Yeah. So We I sure wish you'd get it right. It's that pay that keeps you coming back. Right?

$15.

A month. So I live out in Mount Sterling. And recently and when I sat on the planning and zoning, Chris, I was asking Angie, this wasn't the largest subdivision we ever did, like, nine or 11 homes? Yeah. Somewhere around there. Yeah. Now we've got three in front of us that are 20 lot subdivisions. I have two neighbors right now that their wells have kind of disappeared. They're actually drilling two new wells, and I'm getting concerned about water, and I've expressed this to Skyler. So Skyler, thanks for being here. I just wanted to get an assembly of people because the planning commission sat and listened to a subdivision here a little while ago, and we have no tools to say no to a planning to a subdivision if they have water rights and everything else. And And I'm just wondering, is that the right way to go about what's going on in the unincorporated areas of the county? Because as a county, we really don't provide any municipal services. And when we pack that many houses in a place, it affects fire. It affects our roads. It affects engineering. It affects a lot of things. And I think it's going to be in effect on our water system, and I'm I'm happy that USGS is here and the Skyler Buck. And so, Skyler, I'd like to start with you. If you guys, when you wanna say something, come up to this mic because we we actually had a meeting like this, what, three years ago when we had Will Adkins in here, your private your previous guy. And he talked like in Vox Elder, there is a plan where if you're doing a certain amount of a subdivision, you have to drill a well first and find out if there's water there. Is that right? I wanna just get some ideas of what we do going forward on this because growth is not gonna stop, and let's have an understanding of how we do this.

So so I think Box Elder did want to incorporate something like that. They they kind of went a different direction. So they have lots of water suppliers throughout all of Box Elder County. Like here, I think there's only like Newton. But over there, there's a whole bunch. And so what they've done is they said if there's any subdivision in the county, they will allow them to hook up one well. So they could get one well to drill. But if they're within, I wanna say it's 1,200 feet of an existing water supplier, then for the rest of the development, they have to hook up to that. And and I know that yes, they do want to have wet water and know that water's there before they'll allow

any real development as as far as I understand it in Box Elder County. Any other thoughts you'd like to have us sit on before we proceed or what on the water?

I don't I I know, like, this isn't quite my lane, but I know in Box Elder County, they're also concerned. Like the health department, they have some rules, but I think Box Elder County is also exploring how septic tanks could impact water. I I know that for them, that's a big concern that they're trying to look at other information and try to find out, like, what density that that could become problematic for them. Anyway, I don't know if I have anything. If you have more questions, feel free to Have some. Okay.

Nate? I I have one for you, Skye. So in in Nolan's area, right, Willesville City just drilled a pretty big new well. And what's the difference? I guess, I I see that well as a lot bigger draw on the aquifer than even even a 20 lot subdivision in Olens. Right? The one the one we approved maybe three months ago, in that on that field is gonna stay similar. But but now we're putting 25 homes on essentially 24 acres. And we're gonna have 24, 20

I

Didn't hear the question. But yes. Yeah. Yes. I I agree with you the more Are you are you more concerned with water supply? So because the Loss Elder County does have a little bit more of a groundwater supply. Yeah. They study is gonna show us more here, but it's

Yeah. I mean, Cache Valley varies quite a bit. If you're on the if you're on the East Side, I mean, the aquifers are really good. I don't see it as a problem. The West Side, the Wellsville does quite well, But there are spots in there where where the transmissivity of the soil is not as good. And so But even then, they're okay for homes and they're unlikely to impair other people because the transmissivity is so low that their, radius of influences doesn't extend out very far. And and you're right that the larger wells would be more likely to to impair and cause problems, than smaller ones.

What does that word mean? Transmissivity?

Transmissivity. It's it's how well water can flow through the soil. Thanks. So so some soils allow water to travel through easily like gravel, and then you get a clay, and it's it's almost impermeable, but not not completely.

Thanks. Yeah.

Eric, why don't you come tell us where you're at on your he's from the USGS. Let's if he's got any insight from that, if you don't mind.

I know.

Is this mic right here? Yes. Okay. Thank you all for letting me come today. It's it's an honor speaking for you. I think one of the the main things, if you're aware of our study, that you may not know already is that we are looking at this large regional aquifer in Cache Valley. That's the main focus is to understand what how much water is in the main principal aquifer, but also, where does that water come from, and how long does it take to move through the system from where we think it's entering in places of recharge like the mountains to where it's exiting either in rivers, springs, or being pumped out of wells. Now while that's the primary focus, we're also looking at other additional aspects of the Cache Valley water, including, shallower aquifers, these unconfined units that might be more susceptible to septic tank contamination. Those are sort of additional aspects of the study that are ongoing at the moment. But we hope by the end of this, which is still about a year out from, real numbers being produced, we will provide be able to provide recharge rates, how quickly the aquifer is being replenished with water, in addition to how much water we think is being pulled out from pumping. We're compiling data that we have. But then also, how long could it would it take to get replenished? So water that is that falls as snow in the Bear River Range, does it take five years to get down into the center of the valley? Does it take a hundred years? Right now, we have a couple of samples from wells that are thousands of years old. And so these are sort of the questions that we can think of to help Cache Valley Water Management in the short term, but also in the long term. What does it mean to have a thousand year old groundwater being your primary source of water supply. So that study is ongoing. We have some preliminary results. I can share some today if we want. But really what I'm Interested in. Yes. Yeah. They'd be wonder they'd be, I think, interesting to to see. But for the most part, what I'd like to do is hear what kinds of concerns you all have. And then as we turn these data into interpretations, how can we make sure those interpretations are useful

to people who use the water? So So one question for you. Yep. Nate, you know Chad Brown and that and he's involved in in trends and engineering, but I look at all of these canals that have been in Cache County as a great source of water, but there's a evaporation and subbing of those canals. And I've asked Chad, okay, as we pipe those, we're supposed to save sub 30% of our water from evaporation and subbing. Do you know if that's gonna affect our groundwater once we stop those canals from flowing open? There are several ongoing

seepage studies of those canals to determine if the canals as they are unpiped open and presumably open to the groundwater as well. How much of that water is losing into the subsurface? So it's an open question at the moment of whether or not these canals are actually a significant source of groundwater recharge. In other words, do the does canal water actually provide water that one day goes to wells? That is we have some initial results. I'd have to circle back with, Bethany Nielsen at USU. She leads those studies, But I can provide you whatever information we do have. Cool.

One follow-up on that and then a question. So I think I think the the two main canals that show the most deep water recharge are are the two high light canals. Yeah. The porcupine high light and the high light comes out low. They're lined up up. Most of the lower canals, Bethany studies can almost track that water from the canal back to the river or or in the Crockett system, from the canal to Logan City Sewer System. They're pretty, pretty shallow groundwater. Mhmm. So they're they're pretty easy to track back and forth. But those two upper canals probably have some significant deeper groundwater recharge. But there's,

Yes. We are trying to take an accounting of everything. There's a couple of caveats to the numbers from, I believe, that 1994 study is what you're referencing, Where the the the recharge number simply comes from an imbalance of the math. This is how much water it looks like is flowing through our streams, how much come is coming out of wells, and how much is coming out of springs. And what where there's an imbalance, then we say, well, maybe that's some of that's interbasin flow, but the numbers in order to add up must be recharge. And what we're doing is we're saying rather than saying that recharge is the mathematical assumption, we're actually trying to measure that and seeing how it compares. So, yes, we will take into account major spring discharge. I mean, that's a huge component of the groundwater budget. But I guess just to be clear, like, what we are doing is taking novel techniques and actually trying to measure recharge as best we can and see how that compares to the overall groundwater budget rather than just assuming what the recharge is based on. Yeah. Correct. So I have you to thank for this study. It it's been

great so far. I think you have Several folks.

Good point. And I guess one thing I didn't mention early on is that the the groundwater model that's associated with this. So we're taking these there's two phases. We're collecting samples. We've had a lot of great participation from municipalities and well owners and spring owners across the area. But we we're going to that's phase one. We have a lot of information on that that will help us with recharge. But we're also going to use those results in a groundwater model that can be used to fit look at scenarios. What happens if snow changes greater snow, less snow, earlier to melt, later melt, things like that, developments. What happens if you put a few more straws in the ground? So those kinds of things, we're also working on, and I think that'll be really useful to you. But I forgot to mention earlier, the the groundwater model, is is showing some promising results.

K. Thanks. We'll probably be back at you again. Thank you. Fair River Health, would you answer some questions on what you see going on septic tanks in the county and the closeness of what, like, Nate talked on this 20 lot subdivision?

Richard Worley, Bear River Health. I guess, first of all, do you have some initial questions you wanna ask or you want me to just kinda briefly go over what we do and Is our current

method of septic tanks in the county right? Or can we upgrade or do something different to watch our contamination of water if we're I mean, 20 homes in a 20 acre lot or a 20 acre area, I think you're fine. But if you start talking what Skyler talked about, the that big word of water moving through here. Transmissivity. Transmissivity.

I

wrote it down. You really gotta determine what that is in those areas. So I just think we need to be looking at that. The more homes in the greater area that I just start worrying about that. Yeah.

So we're the permitting authority for septic systems for individual homes in the county that are less than 5,000 gallons a day. And our authority comes from Utah administrative code and which is R317Dash4. And in that code, it allows us to permit systems at a density of if they're on private wells, the range is an acre to an acre and three quarters per lot. And it's based on trans transitivity in soil. So if you have a gravelly soil, you could go with a smaller lot, which would be an acre. Or the clay soils, it would be more of an acre and three quarters. And that's really all that we have to base our permitting authority on is is that that, table, you know, with the the lot size. If if contamination is an issue or if it becomes an issue, then you have to start looking at, you need some data to to support that, you know, with a a density study to see how those are impacting the groundwater. And we've seen that a little bit. Millville has had some issues with nitrates in their groundwater

because they're very Some areas like in Mount Sterling as well. So

I'm not I don't know. Grant, are you familiar with

I my daughter had to put a whole new filter system in her well because the nitrates were so high. So that was just this summer.

And and if it's a private well, we're probably not privy to that information. So that's that's interesting. But but, yeah, Millville had some some significant problems with nitrates. And as you know, they're they are going on sewer so that will help resolve that. But, you know, Millville is a very densely populated area, a lot of septic systems. Whereas out in the county, it's not that bad. But, you know, it could be. So,

yeah. Go ahead. The the county allows for as small as a epic lot.

So is that a conflict with septic systems?

What Millville had?

So let me let me back up here. So if in Millville, they have a public water system. So you can go with a smaller lot. So with with if you have water hookups, then the range is 20,000 square feet up to a half acre based on soil type. So, yeah, you can do smaller lots if there is a public water system. But if if it's on a private well and the county has a half acre, we would have they would have to defer to us as far as lot size or we wouldn't approve it.

Yeah. That's because that's interesting. That's unincorporated. Right? Right. We we provide guidance on unincorporated areas. The county allows for a small half acre lot, but

where we at is. Right? Yeah. So Right. Matt Phillips had a question for you.

Matt Phillips, public works director for Cache County. I was just gonna ask if septic system. So will that increase the lot size, or how would you work with septic permitting when you have a house and, say, an accessory shed or shop or something like that, but also

Or add to that when people do a rental

or something that's For an ADU. ADUs. Yeah. Yeah. Currently, we that's we continue to do that same lot size. Usually, an acre is adequate for those types of situations.

So for clarification, you can have two septic systems on a one acre lot, or if they had a house and a barn, that would be two acres?

You can have two septic systems on a on a one acre lot. Yeah.

Yes. Brady.

I just had a question, though. With regards to the acreage, you can have 20 acres or 10 acre average for these 20 lots. But if they're all put along the frontage of the roadway under within a 100 feet or so, I mean, the distances, doesn't that play into it differently?

So it has to be there has to be the acreage set aside for each lot. So if let's say, for example, you have a an area that's clay soil and they're gonna put in their own individual well, they have to have an acre and three quarters regardless. You you can't have a smaller lot than that. So if you if you compact them in front, then are those lots gonna be an acre and three quarters? Is that is that kinda what you're asking? Or Well, we've had we've had development with Smithfield

and Mandon a lot less. They'll take it. They'll they'll say we got a 100 acres or it doesn't even matter. But they'll go a half acre, three quarters of an acre. But regardless of how much property is affiliated with one house, if they're all around the road, because they don't have to do a longer driveway, I mean, the waters, the the wells, the septics, they're they're right next to each other.

Yeah. You you are concentrating them a little bit in that situation. But, yeah, they would in in cities, usually they are smaller lots because they do have water hookups.

So But this is kind of what I'm talking about even in Smithfield where the developer that emergent acre and three quarter lots, I'm positive. They they broke them down to halves. Because they're still got them. Because they're doing the clustering. They're on 800 West. There's a whole bunch of them by the temple and the forest acres. They were they were half acre lots or or three quarters. They were they were definitely under acres. Three quarters. They would have to be on city water then or They're not. No. They're on the West West Side of the West Side Of 800 West. It's county.

The the one acre is exactly or the one lot is exactly one acre.

Yeah.

Well, it's just because that that home's that close on set piece when you're right there. No. Years if they have acreage, if they're flustering like that, it's it's right. You're right on your pavement.

Yeah. Years ago, when they when I built out there, I got heavy clay soils. I remember Fair River Health Department telling me, you know, it'll take forty years to move any of that sewage. It was like so many feet in that heavy, heavy clay. And it just, you know, it just took forever in that heavy. So the soils, you know, the sandy soils, the rockier soils, certain areas. I mean, it'll fly through Smithville when they were on the septic systems years ago. It was always touted that, hey, we flush Benson drinks. And, you know, and that's that's why there were some issues, you know, but there was more than nitrates. They had other things that were coming up in their water systems down below below in the springs. And so they you know, when Smithville went on their sewer system, that really changed the quality of water down lower. So so there is relation to all of it, but it's all soil.

Yeah.

And I guess the oh, go ahead. I know I tried to do that. Since they detected the nitrates, how long I know it probably depends on the transmissivity of the soil, but how long does it take for that contamination to clear up? Like, in the case of of Millville,

it's at Well, it's it's gonna be interesting because we are sampling

each year to see Is that just ground water? Pure ground water? It's not in the actual

water that is being delivered to the homes? It's the it's the aquifer that is being delivered to the homes. The nitrates are not high enough to exceed the the maximum contaminant level that's safe. So they're still but they're kinda they're getting close. But as we continue to sample, we'll see how that clears up. We don't we don't know yet how long that's gonna take.

Well, I guess the the overarching question that that I was hoping to get from this meeting that we can all pull together is as we plan in the future for development in the unincorporated parts of the county, what, you know, what requirements should we be able to require before development? Like, what are we look what are we looking for for septic and water and how do we manage that so that it's fair? It sounds to me like there's a lot of different things going on around our around our county. And that was what I was kinda hoping to to pull together is is all of this expert opinion so that when things come before us, we we can say, yes. We feel comfortable in approving that 20 lot subdivision because we know there's enough water, that the septic tanks will be safe, that kind of stuff. And I think the planning commission is the same way. And I you guys know way more than me already, and so maybe you have a better handle on that. But, I think that that's kind of what we're looking for. How do we manage that kind of growth and still make sure and maintain the the water supply and the safety of the septic tanks? Yeah. So

so What are we trying to protect people from? Yeah.

I mean, in in my experience, like, I feel like if if we

see if you pass a perk test, you know, kind of thing.

I don't know if that's helpful or not. Yeah. I think that's why we're relying on the expertise. Because what I'd love to see, and I'm sure you guys would too, is if there was a set of guidelines, like we drill a test and we get x amount of water, and the USGS says it's gonna be replenished this much, and the nitrate level has to be below this, and it can't have a it has to flow at this rate per acre. Acre. Something like that. Right? Where you're having, like, your 10 tests if it if the developer who's interested in the project passes that, then you can in good faith. Just like you would with roads or egress or adjacent zoning, things like that.

Mike, could I pick on you for a minute for a legislature type thing? Well, for instance, the planning and zoning, we sit here and we see a 20 lot subdivision come in. We can't say no. I'd like to see a an ability because, Angie, you correct me if I'm wrong, but we shall approve a subdivision if they meet instead of May. Is that correct? Yeah. It is an administrative act.

So If you're not changing the zoning Yes. If you're trying to change the zoning, then there's a lot more discretion. But if it's like these big subdivisions, you're talking about 200 acres,

that sort of thing, generate in the eight ten twenty twenty buildable lots. Yep. That's what we're talking about. But we're talking about what Brady's talking about up there where, in Mount Sterling, he's he's got 300 acres, but he wants to put 20 in a 24 acre place, isn't it? Or and that takes roads and everything there. Not big enough, though, they won't be able to do it. That's what I'm wondering is we've not looked at that that way. Right? Right. We yeah. Or is there a different technology we can require in our code? Like, is the septic a septic system a septic system, or is there a different technology we can change? There is different technology, but that's why I wanted code to require or health care. Question I had to read. Because that's what we talked about earlier on these bigger subject because some of the newer technology out there, you essentially have an on-site

treatment facility

for Yeah. It's it's like a pretty good technology. It's like a mini sewer treatment plan. Can't require that unless

there's an identified

concern? Is that Yeah. There needs to be Oh, we can't say we're just gonna require that account. Right. Unless there's a concern. It's like too it's too onerous. It's not of a burden. It's too much of a burden. They they require operating permits that are forever for the life of the system probably triple the cost of a of a conventional system. So there has to be reason

to to do that. Unless they're Is there high nitrates we probably Yeah.

So, Mike, what I'm looking for is is give us some latitude of saying no because we can't say no right now because it says shall. I mean Maybe maybe you and I can talk, Moe, because I've actually been in this battle for a while

because it's been such a in a rush to make sure there's enough housing everywhere. Exactly. We keep doing these things. Yep. And some of our counter productive.

Well, we have three Especially here in our county. It's just it's just killing us. We have three twenty lot subdivisions that have hit us this year, and they're all in the South end of the valley. And we're all sitting there. I mean, I can remember Val j sitting there saying, I don't wanna pass this, but I can't say no. Right? So I mean and we and and, yeah, I'm for property rights, but I'm for doing it right too. So that's why and, Andrew, you might have to help us as far as what we can do from a county as far as ordinance, but we need to start coming together whether it's water or county or septic or roads. I know Jason's got some thoughts here on fire that we need to listen to as well. So your thoughts, Mike. But but I I'm happy to to work with work with you guys before the session because this is this is something that's really been bugging me as as Yeah. I mean There's a you got some suggestions on things we could do to tweak this and make it work easier. That's that's for Huddl. Do

it. Well and, I mean, we've had to halt things. We put a moratorium for six months, so that's not helping the the housing goal be achieved either, and that's what happens when you're unsure is right? So hopefully, that provides some leverage to say, we wanna cooperate, but we wanna figure it out. Okay. We'll we'll talk later, though.

Though. K. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Kurt. I've got questions. I don't know how you answer this one, but there's we're letting these developments come in, like, at 20 blocks development, but how do you protect existing people around

those developments where they will drill these wells. Now people are existing there, they're well Well, you would know exactly there's a well-being dug right across the street right now because a 50 year old well ran dry. And so he wrecking their backs. Exactly. And there's gonna be 20 wells sitting over there. And back to Nate's point, the one big well is there, but And it's just gonna pump less, so it's There's less to pump. But Yeah. The fact that those 20 wells hit the same aquifer, I don't know. Because up in my area, I've had neighbors that have drilled five wells

and dry, dry, dry, and then finally hit water. Last year they're pumping year round instead of just over three months?

Yeah. The the the quantity is pretty close. And then Scott, you can probably speak more to that. But I think and then when this study is done, that'll give us a little better idea. That has a bigger draw on the overall offer. I really But but if we put in something in place that says, if you're over a five lot subdivision, and and maybe there's some other things. Right? If it's five lots over 50 acres and then all 10 acre lots, a public water system might not make sense. But on these concentrated subdivisions, if there's already a well there, especially right that water is monitored for how much they're pumping out of it. Where a single well, there's no monitoring. Or you don't report how much you use on your personal well instead. You you can use whatever you want. Right. And that was the water quality testing. So they're testing that every year. I think there are a lot of put in place without changing state law to give us the power to say no. We already have the tools in place. Let's just update it. Andrew, do you agree? Can we get something like that? Absolutely. I think the state co provision we're talking about who says if the preliminary subdivision application complies with the applicable county ordinances

and the requirements of the section, the land the land is through a shall prove the subdivision. Right? The key there is the applicable county ordinances. So like I said, if you wanna update and then put whatever requirements you want in our county ordinances for the subdivisions, then that's perfectly fine. And the issue with the the question that's been brought up with those bigger lots is it is compliant with all the applicable ordinances of that the county has in place. So they shall be approved. Shall be approved. Have more tools, have more requirements based on whatever we wanna do, then that's something we can certainly look at. No. I think there's wisdom in that. The wisdom I see is that the shift of the risk.

Then if a developer comes in and he wants to do a like, for example, a whole bunch of a whole 10 homes in a little area. I think that they ought to be able they ought to drill that well to make sure those 10 homes are protected. You You have one public water system and it's adequate flow and whatever it may be versus 10 different wells that you sell them off one at a time and then they just walk. The developer just walks away and say, hey, You get water. You might get water. You may not. You know? And then everyone is suffers at that point. So I think the shift of that is is is good.

So as one of the developers composing one of these 20 lot subdivisions, or your grandchildren, costs are rising on housing because we're saying no. Rather, can we find a way to say yes with certain conditions? I think that's we have a

I think what you just said, that's just what he said. I think, yeah, in my mind, that's what we're doing. So so if you're doing a 20 lot subdivision and and you've got 20 lots to sell. Right? Now instead of drilling 20 wells,

a

lot. Correct. So you you can probably get some of that money back. Yes. I think yeah. I'm trying to say yes. Yeah. I don't think we need to go to legislation and change state law. I think we just need to tweak county code so we can say yes and say, yep. Here's here's one extra step you have to do with the developer if it's a big step. Not not not what we'd appreciate.

What I see is the developer makes money because he's developed a water system, which he charges rates for the rest of their home life there. So now I want Jason to talk about fire on size of lots, and that's another driver of what we've been looking at on these 20 lots because planning and zoning is dealing with one in hire right now. So

so I'm gonna start out with kind of a show and tell real fast just because it just happened this last week. We passed those out. We passed those out to those guys real fast. So Sunday morning, we had a fire at out in Petersburg in the unincorporated county at let's see. What is it? Twenty seven hundred North and sixty five hundred East subdivision out there. And I it's is it Red Rimrock? Which one is Eagle Rock. Eagle Rock. So this is Eagle this is Eagle Rock. And they roughly have

they have They're on top of the hill.

They roughly have 18 homes. Well, they do this here.

Fire's going north. So anyway, when I arrived, the fire had was moving south, hit the road. Luckily, the we were lucky that it didn't jump the road because there's another 10 houses further down. Then the wind shifted went up to these three houses that were threatened so that takes another alarm or two. So we had three this was a three alarm fire that burned 12 acres just for the fact that we had structures that were threatened. It was 10:00 on a Sunday morning, so we had a lot of people show up. It was good. Unfortunately, if this was Monday morning, it wouldn't have been so good because I don't think we would have had enough resources on scene to to stop this. Luckily, it started going north away from the houses. We were able to get it stopped right before us, Safflower Field, luckily. And then on the other side, if you can see on your map, on the other side of the the hill which way which the fire was headed that way, we still have houses up on top. Now the neighbor that lives right there at the very top as I was talking to her after the fire, she says, can I ask you a question? I said, sure. She says, how come I don't have a fire hydrant up here? I said, that's an excellent question. Call Nolan. So this is something that, you know, I've had to deal with for I've been working for the county for fifteen years, and we do have a number of subdivisions that concern us. That's one of them. The new one that's going in is a concern. Maple Rise is a concern. Charleyville is a concern. Cobblestone's a concern. Just for the fact that, luckily, Cobblestone has a few hydrants, but the rest of the the subdivisions that are that are out there, we have no water supply whatsoever. And so, you know, we we really depend on these these volunteer fire departments to bring water to us. Because if they don't bring water, we're not putting fires out. There's just no way. Well, Maple Rias is nothing but trees too. Exactly. And and that's why that's why I'm pushing the second access so much in these in in these areas where one way in, we gotta have two ways out of those. Plain and simple. If we can't have water, we've got to have a way out. If we can't have water, then we got to have two ways out. Plain and simple. One thing that scares me to death and we have been lucky. This county has been so lucky that we haven't had any deaths because of people getting trapped in these areas. So I think Nathan has an excellent idea as far as the subdivisions. If we could get you know a water supply more than five that would be that would be awesome. That way we have the ability to you know get water quick. Instead of the closest hydrant to this fire, was Mendon. Going back to Mendon City. So if you're familiar where that is and going back to Mendon, that'd be probably by the time you got back there in Newton. By the time you got back to the city limits and filled up your truck and got back, it's gonna be probably, gosh, forty five minutes. That fire moves a lot faster. We'll move a lot of them long ways in forty five minutes. So

So to speak to that, what are you considering an adequate supply? So if they have a well for five homes and that well produces 80 gallons a minute, are you having a warning system put in?

Yeah. You'd have to have a tank. I mean, the code if we if we go by the code, which these guys hire me to follow the code, single family dwellings will need at least a thousand gallons a minute for an hour. So that's kinda what we're gonna have to shoot for. Unless we want to make an ordinance and change it throughout the through, you know, through the county. I mean, that's why they do subdivisions and city limits. They get it. They can get away with it because there's fire hydrants. We we we start putting houses together like this and a house starts on fire. It takes a lot of resources if it for some reason an ember jumps to the next house and starts the next house on fire. Now what do we do? Who do we call? Franklin County? Boxteler County? It'll take them a while to get there, anyway. Yeah. I mean, it's it's just I mean, we're we're just rolling the dice

is what we're doing. How far out is an airplane? An

I'm not sure they would send one for a house fire. That's a state thing. That's that's a whole state thing. I have I I could not I can call airplanes on wildland fires. And, yes, I can I could call one? But say it's it's in the middle of winter. Yeah. There was. Yes. We can and we can get aircraft and thank goodness that we have access to aircraft, but that's not a That's two hours or It's probably an hour before they can yeah. Boise or if there's they're available in Hill Air Force Base, they'll come. But there's helicopters that, you know, staged during the summer here in Utah. But this time of year, they start going back to they go to California and or Australia Australia and and different places to work. We just don't wanna have one set here just for, you know What if? What if.

What do other municipalities throughout the country? Because we can't be

Sure. Well, I know Box Elder County has hydrants out in the county. I know that Weber County has hydrants out in the county. So and those, you know, as far as I I think the difference in those locations is they have local water conservancy districts. May yeah. They may be. Water supply Yeah. Unincorporated areas. Yeah. We don't have. Yeah.

Lawrence? I was just gonna say everybody wants a view, so they wanna build on a hill. Sure. Of him knowing his cost where it goes in Sure. Money or can't make money. Sure. But it should be very clear to him or her what they're going to do and what's expected.

Absolutely.

I agree. The people who build the house will have the right to say, okay. We've got a cistern. We've got a pump. We've got a backup pump. And we can fight a fire if it comes here, and you're gonna have there's, you know, three fire hydrants here, and we can get the Right. A lot.

Absolutely.

But we're not facing that just like what you experienced out there on the fire. Where's my fire hydrants? We have people moving here from the city, yeah, asking for fire hydrants in that. So and that's the planning and zoning commissions dealing with that one in hiring, which is we sit here and listen to legal opinions for three hours all night long and didn't come out any better. So Well,

I think we got two system thing. You got water, you got sewer. And water becomes one expense and sewer becomes another expense. They both have to be addressed and where do they meet. Because if you're not going to figure out where they meet and how they meet, meet, then even though you have water, you still got sewer problems.

Well, then just like Chris and Jason have said, in Cass County, we do not have water districts that we're doing like Box Elder and the other half. So There's no water. Well, in the county, honestly, I'm sitting on the county council, and I don't wanna get into that. Right. I don't wanna get into the municipality side, and I don't think we can't can't because it's just too costly. So we have to sit and say, just like you guys are sitting and saying on the solar farm, is this something we want in the county? Well, in the county, how much or how large is a subdivision that should go before we have to have some requirements? So I'm agreeing with Nate. At least we found something to address some issues. And, Skyler, you can address later what you think of that idea of one well for how many houses or whatever.

I'd like your thought. No. I think it's good. I I I was just gonna add to that, though. It might also be good to look at how close they are to cities that are expanding. So, like, we should have a requirement but also a distance requirement because if they're likely to be incorporated into Wellsville at some point, it's nice to have it set up so that they can

take over that system without a ton of additional cost later. And that's a good point because this 20 lot subdivision we're talking about did approach Wellsville, but many municipalities

will not ship water outside of their boundary. And they won't, but eventually, they'll probably throw into it. But if we put in the requirement that they they install the system to the city's design requirements, then the city can take that system off. Exactly. Yeah. If it's not for their design requirements, the city will never when they annex, I think we can address that in the Well, and most cities will say, okay. For annexing, you you're bringing your water rights to the city too. Yes. They they would take that. I have one question for Jason. So so if we went with something like that, right, 5,000

Right. For one yeah. For one home. Thousand gallon tank. Yes. But but, again, we gotta make sure that, you know, we can we have to, you know, put those hydrants in and make sure that it's all yeah. To yeah. From their house. Yeah. Because like code, we've gotta be able to get to their house and around that house with two hoses. That's that's what the code says. I think there's a mechanism

the state has a a public improvement

I mean, it's just like, you know, building your house in the city. You pay, you know, impact fees. Yes. Why couldn't we do the same with this? You know, we do the well, and the the developer does the well and charges impact fees to people that come in and build their house.

Andrew, you taking notes on that?

But it but in the end, it could be the water district that says the private systems could be operated by the district. Right? You know, you wouldn't need to set up a new district for every subdivision. That's gonna take a little bit of work to get the whole water district board to that point. But, potentially, that that could be a service that

And that's And then it's only one person

running all those private water systems at at that point instead of every subdivision having a different one. Because the state is gonna I mean, they're passing a bill this year. It's gonna they're trying to force away from that. Right? Consolidation of small water systems

coming from drinking water department. So The key to making the impact fee model work would be the water district organized to take that on. Yeah. And then That would be for every subdivision

specific. Yep.

If you got one tank spread over 20 homes or one of them over five, that's in fact easier than a whole lot. But you can also make the developer pay that upfront cost

smells like sewer before you need to start using it. I mean, I know there's ways of handling it, but it's not really a one size fits all except for for fire protection. No. It's not. Still a decent mind for for supply efficiency.

K. Matt, I guess you get to tell us your thoughts of what we're looking at it from the municipal services side roads in that.

I wish I had some notes, but Matt Phillips, Cache County Public Works director. My thoughts are going all over the place, so bear with me. But when we talk about these water systems, Nolan, you mentioned that we don't have any water districts in in Cache County, But but we have the Benson culinary water district functions very well. Benson provides a lot of water, and a lot of those residents that are building near Benson, they have hydrants. They have city, you know, basically city water to them and they're able to find these water rights. And so we do have little pockets of districts. Cove, there's a few more up in Cove. So we do have some of these water districts that are providing some type of a network. And in my opinion, it works very well. What what when we talk about a five lot subdivision coming in, drilling a well, creating a water system, some of my thoughts go to, right now it's very difficult for me to try to, you know, manage and to make sure that these people are being compliant. And now you have an HOA or something that has no expertise. They're in charge of maintaining some water system. And before you know it, their pipes are broken, they're in trouble with the state, and now you have five homes that, you know, signed up for something that they didn't want a part of. And so I think and now you have one five lot here and one five lot here, so I think and now you have one five lot here and one five lot here, and now you got all these little teeny watered districts and people trying to be compliant. And pretty soon, you you just it doesn't work. I mean, our private roads are hard, right? Someone will create a private road, they sell it, they move on, and now, you know, it's dilapidated, there's no one's been putting money in to fix it. And so, you know, my thoughts go to that is, you know, not necessarily to put pressure on Nate or someone, but if the county is saying, hey, if you if you come in and you're gonna build a subdivision and you need to provide a water source and a water supply, I think we have some people in the valley, whether it be a private district, whether it be Nate, whether it be Benson. Someone's gonna come in and start providing that and and how they operate it. But there's in my opinion, there's money for people to be to make in the water and the sewer business. But I heard recently that Lewiston is trying to sell water. They have so much water, they're trying to sell it. And and so whether my source is accurate or not, but they're trying to sell it to other communities. So, I mean, we're not without the having those people on board, I like the discussion of they're going to be annexed in. What are we what is the county doing to make sure the infrastructure is there so that when they do develop, we don't have a whole bunch of septic systems and we don't have a bunch of water systems. The other part, not to be too long winded, is whenever someone drills a well that's more than their own personal well, there seems to be a source water protection. So currently in the county right now, when one of these larger communities, Lewiston, Wellsville, whatever, when they come in and drill a well, that puts on a source water protection that encumbrance all the property around them, and now they can't have a septic system. So now if we're creating these water, all these little water places where we have, you know, they have to be registered with the state, they're probably gonna have to have a source water protection, and now you can't put any septic systems in that area too, so you're uncovering land that's next to you. One of the things I think the county needs to do is there probably needs to be more permitting for Lewiston to come in and drill a well in the county, some kind of a public hearing because that changes all the land use in whatever their source water protection is and encumbers the landowners next to them. They can't put a septic system in per the county code currently. So you have started having a lot of these and now you have septics and you have all these things. You're trying to create a whole bunch of little teeny districts and I think going forward if you look at Box Elder that has more of these, you look at Weber County, you look at around the state and some of these counties that have gone through our growing pains, they are getting their water supply by a water district that has the expertise, they have the funding, they have the backhoes, they have engineers that help them, so those water systems are staying intact, and those people that are building, they're buying into that, they're getting their water provided. And so it's how we start that, but I think ten years from now or twenty years from now, I see that there's gonna be more water districts, and some of these things that we're talking about are gonna be more handled by districts around the valley. But I don't know if anyone's ever talked to Logan. How do we get hooked up to their sewer system and create some sewer district out there? You know? Yeah. Right? Sorry. Or do we need to create or Wellsville has a sewer. I heard of the sewer. Richmond has sewer. You know, there's a lot of sewer districts out there. You know, have we talked to them? Do we, you know, what would it take for us to start looking at them expanding so that they're, you know, right now the city seem to be very controlling over their water and their sewer, and they don't wanna expand out of their boundaries. They don't wanna give anyone water, but a lot of them have extra water.

You know? A lot of them, their sewer capacity could take some of this county stuff. So The cities have tons of water because they require all the developers to come and Yeah. Get their water. You know?

Yeah. If we let someone go build in the county and then they get annexed in, there's nothing in the development agreement or in the subdivision of the county code that would make them participate, hook up, you know, they get to keep all their water rights.

But so

You brought up a good point. On on the source water protection plans, I do think the county needs an updated code to address that. Right? Clarkston dealt with that last year. The developer doing the work up on the mountain above their their spring. There's that's that's the source for three cities out there. I think the county does need to update the code to address those source water protection plans and restrict.

No. On PNC. That we have in here. On PNC, the only time we ran into it was when it was a city well Yeah. Like Millville's source protection, Wellsville's.

So Would you need to look at that, mate, the county go and see what we have in place? Because I'm not aware of what we Well,

water protections,

I got into a situation where the landowner died and they had some absentee landowners that were running it. They weren't really aware of it. And I came in just as the farmer to

Yeah. He's not really hard about it. But there was nobody

there wasn't anything to indicate that to me on anything that I have, and we had been in there for That's a good point because nobody's protecting it or watching it. So Which to me, again, is a bigger issue for a groundwater

contamination than a single family well. I think some of these bigger things there's a lot of stuff we need to work in. There's no way we can get a

Are there other counties that maybe have are farther along and have some kind of codes that we could mimic or, you know, start with this as a base and then let's make a few tweaks to make it work for our county? Like, to me, that would be a rather than starting from scratch, let's look around the state and see how other counties are protecting their water or setting up districts out in unincorporated areas and see if there's something that we can start with. I think Box Elder have to probably

have some. But you look there's a lot of their developments more still level. Challenge we have, and they have some of the the challenge we have is these hillsides.

Well, they've they've been at it for forty years. Right? Their district has been around. So they're they started at the same point we are forty years ago. And they had all these little communities that were on private wells, and now they're slowly running lines across the county so they have fire hydrants. They can hook a new subdivision on because they're

Do you know how many districts they have over there, Nate, by chance? I know it's One real district has some small private water county needs in city run, but every other year, one of those small

requests to be incorporated in the district. They're just slowly because it it's hard for those small ones to maintain those systems. They just they just took a new one out by

And the subdivision out there is required to put in the water. They're required I mean Yeah. They put all the infrastructure in to meet the district's code requirements. So

So is the next step to move the subdivision ordinance to a P and Z or sorry. An O and P discussion?

More than five? More than five will have to have Well, I think it could be I mean, what are we basing that off of? Can say it's a five Yeah. The reason I came with five is because that's what triggers it to go to a private water system. Ordinance review? Five homes

on one way out.

That's it. Yeah. Yeah. More than four. Five or more first. Then then you're required to be Yeah. I'm I'm I'm asking what process we want. But if but if you're if you're a five lot subdivision on, you know, a 100 acres in there, they're all on 20 acres. I think there still need to be some where it makes sense. It may be the cluster. I think we still need more discussion on that because I don't think in every situation, like you said, there's a lot of differences around the county, and

It's gonna take Well, we also we also need to be looking at the county. We got fire that says what's our state law? More than 20 homes? You need a second egress? 30. 30. So when we throw a 20 lot subdivision, like we're talking about in Hiram, plus the 20 that's there 30. 30. Yes. We need to come up with some number because I'm looking at this from the county saying we're not providing municipal services, so how big and how far out do we want these big subdivisions that we're asking little fire departments to go handle? I mean, Angie tells me today we had a 98 acre piece come in who's looking to go to rezone to RU 2. Yeah. So here we go again. I mean, we're not slowing this down, and so we need to have something that is addressing that from a county standpoint that helps these guys on planning and zoning because right now, we can't say no.

But you keep no one can Oh, we got a little history to go off of not much. We see these right now today, and it may not be quite a big deal. But you went down the road, so you think back to a Stan Cheat. Yes. Private road. Yeah. Next thing you know, how many homes they build out there? 15? Next thing you know, they can't do their road. It was never designed to drain or nothing else. So the county has to go in and do it. What happens to our municipalities out on the hill out in Petersburg? They got arsenic in their water system, and

we could go on from there. We're just called design to put the And they called the developments out in the county. And they called the county in Beggis to take over their roads out there. Roads out there. Right? Petersburg? Oh, they would give them to you tomorrow.

Yeah. And and Nolan, honestly, those should be public roads because We ask public infrastructure to go out there and fight fires. Yes. And at some point, like your trash service, your school buses, those types of things, you a small little five lot HOA probably doesn't work too bad. But once you start getting a mile of, you know, public roads and you got multiple subdivisions trying to use all that, there's no organization. There's no See, that's what I'm saying when we come down to an ordinance.

Yeah. We Our problems don't start till they're filled out, and then it's huge.

Yeah. So does it go through OMP, or does it go through planning and zoning first with the review of, hey. You know, here's the things we I think we gotta give these guys some guidelines. Yeah. I mean, what's the county willing to sit, and what can we back up legally, Andrew? Ultimately,

do we use ordinance, that's what we do, get a recommendation from planning commission first and then come on to you guys. Then on the one p start on the shore, but then hopefully has to go to that. Right. Yeah. So it can go either way, but I would I mean, Dave mentioned it, but I agree.

I ought to go through P and T first, I would think. That's where I mean, we've had this discussion to help

help move it that way. With our development services too, like that. Can you find a way to maybe you know, we get a lot of pressure on the rezones. Right? Maybe there's more restrictions from an a 10 to an R U 5 to an R U 2 based on that water stuff. Right? If you wanna go to an R U 2 and you wanna put a whole bunch of lots in some area, maybe that is where you start to say, hey. You need some kind of a public water system with hydrants. And and so you're gonna find you're gonna, you know, give them the density, but you're also gonna put them to be able to provide that. Where in A 10, if your maximum lot size is back to this acre and and you're still more sparsely dense, you know, your density is not as great. Maybe that is a better place for wells and stuff. But when you start being able to shrink all that into a small spot, maybe that is where and you let the developers go find what's most economical for them to provide that water. Maybe it is a small little water district. Maybe they're working with Benson so that that development's closer to Benson or Cove or they're working that out, and it's not necessarily the county trying to dictate how you go about getting your water, but, you know, that might be another way to because that's what we're getting is we're getting these a lot of density in some of these small areas.

Yeah. Because that approach would address smaller density too, just like the rezone we denied yesterday. But I'm gonna say Based on the fact that there isn't adequate water supply, there's not adequate adequate roads. The rezone is the phase to address a lot of this.

But I'm gonna say planning and zoning is loaded right now. We've tasked them with the solar farms. We've tasked them with other ordinances. They meet once a month. These guys are all volunteer.

You guys get lots of money.

To sit here and throw another thing for them to come up on a subdivision, I'm I think we're asking a lot. I think it's gotta be partnership

is my is my feeling. Meetings where we accomplish something because Yeah. People see what's what's going on.

So I think the council's gotta sit, and we, as a group, have gotta come up with something on the subdivision because we need legal there because we gotta talk about scope, size, fire, roads, the whole shebang. Additionally, we need to look at the annexation declaration of the city of the cities and see if it will fit because they will be taken by those cities eventually. Right. I mean So I I I understand what mister Erickson is saying, but you guys are swamped. I mean, we have rezones. We have everything else. So by the time they sit and deal with what the public is asking them just to come for a rezone or subdivision and we ask them I mean, how long we've been talking about the solar? Quite a while. And We're getting there. We're getting there, but I don't I think these are things that we all need to start gearing up pretty quick is what I'm saying. That's why I'm asking for this meeting is I think we've come a long way. So I I like the ideas we're getting. Nolan, I just thought one other thing is really fast on SAPI.

Again, we talked today about putting it together, and maybe it's not that big a deal. But these people that move out there and wonder why there's not a fire hydrant, Well, I'll bet you I'll bet you hardly any of them understand that I've gotta clean this system out. I witnessed firsthand on a hilly area. People have lived in their home eighteen years. They raised five kids. They never pumped their tank one time. Water starts coming out of the ground. We must have a spring. We must have a spring show about here. Belt the belt Sorry. That's that's your shit. Drinking that water.

You're right. And that's why I say when they ask Jason, where's the where's the fire hydrant? Because they move out there, and they don't understand what they just love the open space. And I I get it. I'm I'm out in the outer country, but at the same time, I'm also sitting here on the council saying, we just can't provide the services that needs to be there. I mean, we're we're having to deal with financing a fire district, let alone telling these guys to go out and fight a fire at a 20 or a 30 lot subdivision and be ready and have tankers and everything else. So this is these are all big issues that we gotta sit and talk about. So that's why I'm saying until we get there, I like Nate's idea that we come up with some and I'm not saying this is the governor to control growth because we all know growth's out there, and he owns the property, owns property rights. But at the same time, I had a realtor give me a notice of some of the recent sales, and there's seven sales in the South County, five lots, six lots, and eight lots. All of them are above $500,000. So somebody's making some very good money out there, and we're as a county, we gotta start looking at impact fees or something and limiting because we throw all this on and say, okay, Wellsville Fire Department or Mendon Fire Department take care of that, you know, and and it's not gonna work. Or we say to Matt, get the get the roads plowed and yet the roads are subpar. So

all of these are issues we gotta sit and figure out. Well, and I think one we haven't raised is every time we've had these public comments, we've had these families who come in and come in and said, you know, we've been here for a hundred years and then we'll go back to the next slide. And then we'll go back to the next slide. And then we'll go back to the next slide. And then we'll go back to the next slide. And then we'll go back to the next slide. And then we'll go back to the next slide. And then we'll go back to the next slide. And then we'll go back to the next slide. And then we'll go back to the next slide. The well. There was a homestead here, an original homestead where the valley was founded, and there's springs that fed the home there on the Partington Farm. And these homes came in, drilled through wells, and it dried up the spring. And I understand the way, you know, water acts work. It's a right, but it's not a guarantee that the water will be there. And so these homes And, you know, so if if we're not looking at the cost for those that are already there, that have been there, those families, it it what a big burden. And, you know, we don't wanna bash on developers, and that's not what my you know, because I'm like everybody else. I want my kids to be able to build somewhere and have that. But if they do it, they've gotta pay for the cost of that, and that has to be incorporated in because, you know, it's not fair for them to redevelop the roads for 30 houses that they put in. They already built the road into their house a hundred years ago.

I agree. And and there's another thing you guys are dealing with as a planning and zoning pioneering that we're trying to work through as an ordinance and everything else. I mean, we throw a lot on these guys. They have a lot of things to work, and and throwing this subdivision and water on them, I just wonder that it should be sheltered or shouldered by some others

too. Can we give them a $5 raise?

We we can't give them a raise.

I wish we could. We can certainly go o and p starts out with pulling in anyone. I mean, every it's a public meeting. Everyone can participate, and we'd certainly engage with the planning and zoning members in that conversation. You know, Matt's regular there, etcetera. You know, that I feel like that is the way to spread the workload.

Right. We start it that way, but it's definitely In in actual plan you can see the review. This. Right. I I don't think we should have a meeting that goes by that we're not looking at one or two code updates. Right? Some of them are pretty minor. Hopefully, we have two coming next month. Like the council? But but they yeah. There there are so many things that need to be updated in our code that have been looked

So we make a list now of where we wanna start? I mean, do we talk about that right now? Well, I think we start with Nate's suggestion first and foremost. Market is my suggestion if we have Well, it's a get out of there, Nate. But you have good ideas, Nate.

Well, to

me, get out there, Nate. But you have good ideas, Nate. I'll call it Nate's ordinance decision. Oh, okay. Yeah. It's in my house, Nate.

Yeah. Is is there a step that involves looking at what other counties, even in other states, are doing?

That that I mean, this fits the usual flow at OMP, guys. City council did not fit well. Staff did that. Obviously. Yeah. Morning and zoning. Last night

at a farm bureau meeting and and, you know, they're issues. And I I think, you know, Mark, maybe maybe we gotta be talking more and use and combine the resources.

Sure. But I think because I I think that's what we're all saying. Like, I know our terrain is unique, but I don't think we're this unique snowflake that exists that we're the first to ever have to solve this problem. And only us in this room can come up with a solution.

Like Well, upper on this valley isn't that one of the issues that's pushing them to where they're at today? Development, property rights. Turning into a city now. They're turning into a city. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Right. But that's what's driven.

Chris, you have some points? Probably.

I'll stand up. Thought and then yeah. A couple of thoughts. Actually, I I know that, you know, the gentleman earlier, his developer mentioned that, you know, we have a housing crisis and that sort of thing. And and he's lots. No. No. Like, it's it's not the county my my point is a lot of the you know, because I've been doing this for eighteen years now. Right? A lot of developers will come in and the

that,

a frustration of mine that hasn't we haven't brought up just maybe except on the edges is that when we do have these, proposals in unincorporated areas that are adjacent to cities or very close, and we approach those cities and we say, you got a problem with the future or whatever, or how about, you know, you know, it's in your annexation declaration area, so, you know, you know, do something. They're not saying, you know, we oppose this development because it's within our annexation declaration. We want them to come to the city. And I would really like to the city. And I would really like to see more of that happening rather than them saying, oh, we don't care. And we're sitting there saying, well, they don't care. Then we'll approve it. And then, you know, twenty years down the line, we all know they're gonna be suffering from those decisions. Decisions. And so I don't I don't have a solution, but I feel like there's there's gotta be something there when projects come up within those annexation declaration areas. I mean, the cities have said, we want to eventually be this. And eventually be fixed. And so what does that mean? If you if you don't care that we're approving development within that zone, why do you have an annexation declaration area? That's the point. So I I don't know what to do with that item, but it is a frustration. Also, they should be reasonable. Right? That annexation zone should be reasonable instead of

Some of them are pretty So we're not. Have you seen Wellsville? I

think Yeah.

I'm

choose. I just say to the state why they were here. Isn't isn't there a rule that if you're within so far of a community water system or like a city water system No.

No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.

Some have tried to think. Bridgeman had kind of a kind of one, but it didn't stay out. They got shot down on both sides of the city. It's in the city's best interest, though, because if it's gonna get

get added into the city anyway, they can get the impact fees. They can dictate what it looks like and They can provide the service.

I like, I don't know It's far more cumbersome if you have to do it after the fact. Yeah. I don't know why. For them when they do rate increases. Right? They have to let people not in their city vote. So it it is

here once you get your home in the unincorporated area, you've got your well septic system, and the city's right up next to you, are you gonna go, I wanna be annexed? No. No. No one's No one ever does. You've been you created that barrier. You you've stopped it. Basically, you've stopped it. And so so basically, it's everything behind you. You know, they're gonna have to go to do a roundabout on everything to try to get everybody to then you have a little island in there. It just doesn't happen.

And I think the cities are are doing this because they're kind of fighting each other. Right? It's not it has nothing to do with the county or really their vision for where they want to be. It's like, we don't want them to come take you as Lance, and we're going to say we'll come up to here. Well, part there is part of the county because in our master plan,

we went to the cities, Angie, and asked what their annexation part was because, Dave, you were in on that with us. And so, I mean, we basically said before long, we're like Davis County. I mean, Davis County has, what, five miles of county road and the rest is all municipality. So that's what We're a long ways from that. We're a long ways, but yet we're trying to enforce that by saying, hey. Mark your territory, so to speak. So

Skyler, you were gonna say something? Well, I I was just gonna say something that Yeah. But then it's revenue too. Yeah. It is right now. It's a way that they go right into the cities. And then you can keep, you know, with your zoning or however you do it, you can try to keep the growth more around the cities instead of just pushing them all out in the county.

No, I just wanted to say, back to the whole going to OMP or the planning and zoning committee being, writing code, I just remember when I was on Logan City Planning and Zoning Commission, every code we ever considered was written by the city staff, by the planning staff. That's where it began. They brought it to us to tweak and talk about. And they and I'm just wondering how much of our staff and I know, Angie, you guys are shorthanded. But to me, that's where the code should originate is with our development services staff and our planning staff. And and then and then it comes through this this function of OMP and and the planning commission. And so I don't know. To me, that's that is more of the where the flow like, you guys don't don't have the legal expertise to be writing code.

Where the resources? When I was on planning and zoning,

that's exactly we relied on the staff would bring these this information to us. We had a short piece on the agenda, and that's what we talked about.

End of the week moving on. So far over the right. If we say draft an ordinance, we're

another meeting. But they're but they're short handed. You know? I know. That office right there, it we need some help there. Well, we're still trying to deal with rentals throughout the county. I mean, that's been front of us a year and a half, trying to control get a code on that. We're also been talking about

Powder Mountain. Powder Mountain.

Yeah. I mean had to mention that. We we weighed these guys down a ton. I know. We've gotta figure out how to work together and get something together so that we can proceed and let these guys know what to do when they have a development come before them and then we've helped them and and be able to do it because flipping tough. I mean It eventually comes to us then too. But it's a moratorium. Like, once they approve once they approve a subdivision Yep. It's there, the land use authority and it's done. Angie's got told me. Oh, I was just gonna make a couple points.

In anticipation of this meeting, on the agenda, I we did put a discussion item for the subdivision related, things so we can get that started at the next planning commission. It hasn't typically been our route to go through OMP, but that would be, something to consider. I did put in the budget for next year some money for to do a full code update to get a consultant on board. I'm not sure if that's gonna survive the cuts, but there are other avenues we could look at as well, technical planning assistant grants and things to help with, getting a consultant on board to help with major code rewrites. But we do have about three, three or four on this next month's calendar to address. So Okay. Good. Is your office fully staffed today?

No. No. So so there's the question why? No. Why? Nobody wants

Nobody wants to come work. Position's been open. You have You have almost a year? Yeah. Not yet. So you haven't applied yet? There's a

room. Insurance is stuck. I don't know. Yeah.

Just like what Catherine said though, when our moratorium ends in four months, if we have not made any changes, then it's gonna go right back we don't have any options. We you know, if we can make some some substantial change,

even if we just to be just the beginning Why not have one of these meetings once a month till we get there? Then we can forward this alone. I think we're gonna have to so that we're ready in four months. What what else do we wanna do for the holidays? Yeah.

And budget. We'll we'll feed you next time. Budget season. Yeah. Yeah. For the equalization. K. Alright. I what else, Nolan, do we need to discuss? Do we need to hear from people? I think Nolan, are you okay if we have another meeting? Are you I mean, you guys You guys we're present meeting.

Yeah.

We're impeding on you like crazy. But Would you rather do it at this time of day or would you rather do it in the evening in an evening? What what's more

conducive to your schedules? Evening probably is easier for me. For me, it's better. K.

K. That's good. Good input. K.

All most of us have jobs up here as well. So Let's plan an evening to do that. And But as we get along, I'd like to rely on Eric and you guys from Bear River and Skyler, you guys too, and Jason and Matt because we don't know those type of things. But I think this has brought a lot of things to the forefront. Erica, we'll ask you one question. When's the study done or how far along are we status update? Does that make sense? Great question.

Drainage.

Is that yeah. Is that where the nitrates are entering? Because, like, it's Oh, and I wanted to mention something else.

We there are newer techniques on nitrates that can actually differentiate between fertilizers and septic that are isotopes of nitrate. They're relatively inexpensive. And if that's something that interests folks here, we could potentially look at a smaller study of that. Because I heard talk about contamination and not exactly sure where it's coming from, things like that. So there's there's other solutions. But like was mentioned, people don't know that they're going to septic or that there's not a Right. Fire hydrant out there. I don't think

people know that they can get their water tested very easy either as they've been there for a long time. I mean, once you drill a well, you know you gotta test it, but if you buy it and take over something, I don't know if people even know where the well switch is. And how often should you test it?

It? You wait for your kid to graduate from high school and say, oh, it was the water?

Bring a glass to Nate. He'll swish it.

Your kids start stepping sideways or stuttering or something like that or what? What what what brought up that arsenic? What what was it in that

Petersboro? Do they have it? What was arsenic? Arsenic. Arsenic. Arsenic. And were they required to be tested every so often on a public system like that? Yeah. Is

that one in in the Petersburg, or is that one back up on the But there's sort of a lot of other counties, though. Well, we be Beaver Dam had the same issue. Yeah. So that Beaver Dam moved on to the district.

Well, I I remember the that one development that was trying to go in up there, like, four or 500 homes or something. And, yeah, we just take the arsenic out. That's a good sales pitch. No. Don't live up here. We'll take the arsenic out of this. So I always wondered about that.

Hey, Andrew. I have a question for you. Can you give us some guidance on code updates if we'd follow a suggestion? Nobody's name as far as five homes and some water. And, I mean, we need some guidelines of how far and deep we wanna go with size of subdivisions. I mean And the fire's a big one too. Fire. We're saying to the fire, go cover 20 homes.

I mean, if I also wait That's that's that's that's that's that's something we're more working in conjunction with that. Turries don't know him. I'm happy to help you that.

You don't know everything, Andrew? Yeah. Come on. Can we just real quick go address that one thing to accesses?

Yes. Because that's gonna come before you guys again. Well, what's the trigger for that? Well, we're still here. No. I think we said it was it's not terrible long

way that we keep making them think there's there's coal. So but until we got that second row, why do we have to approve that?

For there's enough into the county code already to address the problem for future subdivisions. So now where they've already basically been and that that application in, that's, you know, some of the questions we're still talking about. But for future ones going in,

Yeah. We've nipped that. So we we can't even use that. Right? Not right now. That's why we put it in. But I just want you guys to to remember where that is. And if you haven't been up there, I need you to go up there and look. Because that picture that you saw up there, if that happens up there

Well, especially now that the dam is closed. Right. Where is your fire coming from? We have to come all the way around to twenty four. So that should be a reason alone until the road is done. We should be able to say no to something like that. Yep? Nothing in the code to stop right now. There see, that's what that's what you guys face as we What do you guys talk about? Where? A new subdivision on South Of Firem Dam. Oh, there's already 27 homes that they wanna put require another 25. So there's gonna they want a total of 44 homes up there. Yeah. And so

But they didn't say they Without putting a second access. Fire. Yeah. We had a meeting. Yeah. No. But I'm not having Nope.

Even though they said it in the public, we need to rescind it. So even though they say they'll put sprinklers in the homes, is it if there's not enough water to Well, that and and sprinklers in the home is not gonna

save their power. Support

sprinklers. Yeah. No. From the outside ends. And if the power goes off, we have nothing from a well because they're on wells. So Right. Are we at the point we can't tell these guys no? Yeah. They want well, maybe they're getting past words. It's not no risk for nothing to do with that. Yeah. I actually want to talk about that specific. But

my understanding is they wanna be on the next agenda for planning commission to get decisions so they can pursue any appeal rights they wanna have. So I'm happy to have that conversation. I'm fully anticipate that coming up. Angie, I'm not gonna talk to you more pretty more about that. I think we'll meet on that tomorrow, but that's what we're gonna have.

K. So my feeling is for the next meeting, I'd like to go and say, okay. If you go more than so many homes, you have a one well thing, and we start going there. I would like to see Water systems. Yes.

What do you guys feel? Five or more? Five. But is there any consideration with that bill based on the area that will water a bed or something? I think

Let's let's note just the one size fits Can you guide us on that, Nate, being in the Water District?

Or can the USGS guide us on that? Though. Right? Jason has some. Let me ask you. Let me throw this at you as well. I got a call the other day from a contractor from Salt Lake that's coming up to build a house at the top of 2400 West. And I and he was asking me questions. I says, how how big is your this home gonna be? And he says, 10,000 square feet. Dude, loo, loo. And just so I'm like, oh, wow. Okay. And I'm thinking to myself, 10,000 square feet? We're getting into con you know, commercial sized buildings. We don't need that. But, again, I you know, I have no say. So just so let's let's think about that because if people are coming and buying lots at $300,000, they're gonna put some big houses on them. Yes. Totally. So, you know, that's just another thing to think about. It's gonna solve our houses here. Lot sizes. Alright. How is that gonna solve? Or how many lots is not necessary? Does Bear River Bear River Health have any idea of transivity

on land and water where we start talking about this five or more

on the building? We do feasibility tests on each home that

So on the 20 lot subdivision, there hasn't been 20 holes stuck though. Right? No. I'm I was involved in that. It was probably about

10

There were 10 holes stuck? USGS, do you have any idea of what transivity you were looking at in different parts of this county?

I don't have the numbers with me, but I what I can tell you is that although the model is produce, I'll tell you how far away that's going to reach

based on the ground waters.

Cool. Yeah. That'll be awesome.

Yeah. Yeah. With the distancing, that's why it matters if it's five homes on

four acre lots versus a one you know? Five homes on a half acre lot. Right. Well, I think we gotta go back and look at this one and three quarter acre thing on sub on subject tanks. That Is I I know right now we've already surpassed that multiple times. Yep. All you gotta do is go to your GIS

and start looking at these subdivisions on 800 West West Side, see what your total lot size is.

And they all have septic tanks. They all have septic tanks. They are. And well, on the gravel. Okay. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Just one final thing. Very close. Leave for my wife's Yeah. We'll we'll make copies.

Anyone here remember the old back in well, back sixties, they used to have the dye test? Nope. They would actually put dyes in the waters and in the caves, up in the mountains. Still doing that. Yeah. It was fascinating how it's up Smithfield Canyon, they put dyes in, and then it wouldn't come up at the it came up in springs way down below. Sometimes really fast. Yes. Yeah. Really fast. So it was amazing how that water moved

and where it went. Send That's why this does you read that text right here. Send it down to something that's available. What

would be unbelievable is they tested for nitrogen and stuff. That went away. That's Yeah.

No. We test our water. We've got enough clay there to protect us that doesn't have

trans disease.

Oh, yeah. K. Thank you everybody for being here. You guys and especially our planning and zoning commission, you guys really do pull an awful lot of weight for very little, and we appreciate you. Everything's Can we set up a meeting in October? Yeah. Let's set up a meeting in October. Or is it Wednesday night? Probably a good night.

Could we do it in, like, a Tuesday night Well, Tuesday. In between

council meetings?

Okay. That would be when's The twenty first would be the only one we have. Tuesday the twenty first, I'll be out of town, but that's okay. I don't know anything.

Meeting agreement. Okay. Mandatory feast day. What about

Do you have state meetings on your own tonight?

It's Wednesday and Thursday and every time. But I I the new water infrastructure. I

can arrange it. Do you wanna do the twenty second on Wednesday?

No. We can.

Yeah. That'll be fine. October 22. Are you doing good with that? Three again? No. At let's do let's say 06:00. Is everybody gonna have dinner and then get here at six? I might be here right now. Does that work, Nolan? Is that good? Do you think six? Yeah.

Anybody who's here, we'd invite you to help us get this process rolling and going. Andrew, are you good? Should be just fine. K. Twenty second

at six. K. Alright. This meeting is adjourned. Thank you. Thanks, folks.