Cache County Council Special Meeting and Workshop – 11-17-2025

Come everyone that's here. If you are here from the public, would you please make sure you sign in so that we know who is in attendance? That will help us. I guess, every should everybody sign in or just

Yes. Okay. At the end of the meeting. At the end of the meeting, if you'll sign in. Sandy, Janine Allen asked that when you're approaching the end, that somebody text her, she can manually lock the doors from her phone. Perfect. K. Perfect. Do you have a number for it? Yes. Okay.

Thank you.

I'd say lock them right now. Yeah.

Okay. Alright. We're so so glad that you're all here. This is we've got some big things to discuss, and hopefully, we can move that a little bit farther down the road. Yeah. So I'm gonna turn the time over to Nolan to start the discussion. Do we need to approve the agenda by chance? Do we I don't know. Do we need it doesn't say it on my thing. We need to approve this agenda.

So moved.

I'll second that. Moved and seconded that we approve the agenda. Those in favor, say aye. With the May with the striking of number three. Number three. Yeah. Okay. Those in favor, say aye. Aye. Aye. Thank you.

You know, our discussion I I I went back and listened to the to the council meeting and and the council meeting and and the discussion that you've had on on whether what zone we should look at large scale solar and and and you discussed that maybe this ought to be an ag. We discussed that and and and I I look forward to the idea of having in the industrial zone more than anything that it needed to be a big lift to get to that point. And and so it's just not a conditional use in the ag zone but it really needed to have some weight to it if you know, because this you look at this, it's a major impact. It is an industrial impact in in these zones. And and so the the weight of putting something in an industrial zone is a pretty big thing because there are other consequences, other things that can can follow if we have an industrial zone. So I think that was that was my direction on it. And and, apparently, I swayed these guys because that's the that's the direction that we what we sent to you was to was to make it a make it a fairly big lift to get one of these large scale solar things through. And and I'll just say, you know, as I in in my work, I I travel the state, and I see a lot of these projects. And and a lot of them really look hideous. And and I and I really appreciated the the discussion that you had about our gateways to the communities, and and and I worry about that. I did just a cursory look through just a simple Google, no, you know, scientific scientific research or anything, but I found lists of of these projects that have been bankrupt and some major problems in areas. And I've seen the one down in

Roleye. No. Not Roleye. Okay. Is your is your microphone on? Are all the are all the mics on? Let's make sure everybody can hear. We are green now.

Anyway, there was a there there was a massive one that that has gone debunked down in in Southwestern Utah, and and Nevada has a major one that's that's just hundreds of millions of dollars and and massive lawsuits. And and and I'm not saying that this is a this is a bad idea, but I really think that we need to think very carefully about where we place these things and and and and put some structure around that, so we don't end up with with a big mess on our hands.

I agree. Thank you. And I don't know how, at what point we are at in crafting that code.

would actually go through the planning and zoning. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's been through the planning and zoning. Yeah. It's been through the planning and zoning. Yeah. It's been through the planning and zoning. Yeah. It's been through the planning and zoning. Yeah.

It's

Oh, yeah. It's been through planning and zoning. Yes. That to us. It's just been a pending action item on the council agenda. Yeah. That specific item. But as far as changing this to industrial

That's what we that's what we sent to you. Okay. Our recommendation was industrial. Yeah. Well, that that would be the It was

a conditional use in multiple zones that we were questioning. It should be an eight ten zone as one of those zones.

And and and yeah. The the discussion was smaller scale. So if if a farmer wanted to put in something on a pivot corner to operate their operate that, that's that seemed like a a reasonable use in the in the a 10 zone. But these large, massive scale ones, I think the discussion we ended up was on was on the industrial.

So how do you I I suspect you guys have the same concern as the council is, and that is the scope, the size. I mean, once it's above 20 acres, do you feel like this the zoning of it going to industrial gives us the ability to throttle that down. Now, as you guys are all sitting there, that's great. But if we get new commissioners, will they see the same thing? So that's our concern from a council is just like you've said, the gateways, corridors, everything else.

Rezone, though, is it's gotta go through both entities.

Yes. Yes. Even if things change on this side. Not Very good point. Yes. Also change versus the conditional use. If it's if it's a conditional use, you know, then it's just but if it's a rezone, then it has to come to both and And and it's a legislative action. It's far easier to say no Yeah. Yes in to a zone than it is. Yes. That's our big discussion. Right? The conditional use permit, you shall approve it. Right. The the re zone even if it's just public discourse, you can deny the re zone and you're legally back to do that. The conditionally used, we feel that if we left it just under that,

there's there's not much recourse. Yeah. Once the zone is changed, you lose a lot of control. And so I think what we were looking to see is a specific code that that limited The scope. The scope of that was specific to solar. And I don't think we have seen I I it's on our agenda, but I believe we're just gonna continue it again. I don't know that we have anything specific to discuss yet, or do we, Angie? Yeah. So since the last council meeting,

So since the last council meeting, Connor and I have been looking at that, and he's found a few places where we've made adjustments, including introducing a solar overlay zone. So it would apply just to solar projects, And then limiting it I know there was the 20 to infinity and beyond, and so there was the recommendation 20 to 500 acres and then having a distance between

projects. So And did did did you guys discuss the gateways? The

We did not. Yeah. I don't think that was included in

the updated code that we were proposing. So but we can do that again. And Yeah. I think that's I I I just think that, you know, the voters spoke and they they approved $20,000,000 to preserve those gateways. I think that that we need we have a responsibility to not, you know, put something in one of those gateways that's just an eyesore

that kind of goes against what we've been asked to do. In this valley, everything's a vista. That's true. Wherever you look at everything is language of of vistas, though. You know, you look at this project coming in over Valley View. Yeah. It's gonna be there.

It will not be in the new calendar. You just need to see those pictures of and look at our solar. You know, you just don't see that. Here's Cache, you know, here's Cache County. I like the description as black shiny hills. Yeah. It would it's to me is and it like you say, it's it's a permanent eyesore.

500 seems to be a big jump. I mean, if you look at the average size of a farm in Cache Valley, isn't 500 stretching it? 500 acres? Yeah.

What's the average size of these?

So if we're going into the agricultural zone with an industrial and 500 could be the scope that Connor, can we tone that down back some or what?

Can you come up? With 500

is Yeah. Can you come up to the microphone, Connor, please?

And state your name. Connor Smith, planning, zoning. So the concern that we have even with 500 acres is a question of economic viability. The big issue you hit in a lot of what you see is the size of these projects kinda jumps from, like, let's say, a max of 20 up to, like, 500, 600. And so there's not a lot that's in between there. So the question is if realistically, if you don't go for something more than 500 acres, the code is almost dead as it is. That's kind of the issue you're facing there.

That's that's what I was finding, and that's why I think did you guys get the email I sent out with the North Carolina example? They they did a thousand per parcel, and then if you combine parcels, I think they did up to 1,500. But, yeah, that's what I was finding is it seemed like 600 to 900 seem acres seem to be about the size to be worth it for the the

this energy generation to come in and do that. That's more than a postage stamp on Cache Valley Vista if you're sitting out there in the S Junction or wherever.

Well, it wasn't 1,100 acres that they were toying with between Valley View and the Marina? And some Kinda runs my mind. It's somewhere in there. Yeah. 1,100 acres. 700? Yeah. Yes.

And now a coal plant can go there. Pretty pretty long discussion about how and and and I think that made it through to the recommendation was that it was it was bond it would bonding would be funded as as the was that the language we used? I think Chris, I think We stepped into it, wasn't it, by the end of five years? As I think it was five years. I think it was stages of the project. On the stage of the project, the reclamation bond would have to be put in place as that happened.

So does does the reclamation bond would pay for the cost of removing it? Removing and and and restoring the the land back to where it was. Okay. And that stays in place as long as the particular use exists, and and may be updated in terms of amounts if it increases.

You know, I I think I think these the projects that you know, other projects that we see in the state, they're mostly in pretty foreground. Right? They're out in the out in the desert, and there's not much growing there. Sage Junction over here used to be great rabbit hunting there, but they

took out all of the sagebrush and and it's basically just But why why do they wanna put it in Cache Valley on farmland?

Because it's close to transmission line. Because Logan Logan City's

big time in favor of it by the alternative energy. So And I see they went somewhere else, I think.

Yeah. And my question is, and I don't know if this is something that can be even addressed on this level, is you we give up our vista. We give up our farmland. Someone's gonna build this ugly thing out there, and none of the power benefits Cache County. Like, that I don't know how you could I don't know how you get past that or if there is a way to say a certain portion of it has to benefit the people. That's what I was getting out with

the that's tricky to say, like, because I mean

Well, that would be that would destroy the soil.

It's not gonna be financially feasible

to dig it up and move new soil in there. We'll just have a dead part of our county. Well, this this particular project, they they were proposing so so some of them do that. Right? They put a ground sterilant, usually like a five year ground sterilant. But these guys were proposing to actually plant a dry land mix of grasses and stuff and growing stuff. So there this this one, not to say other ones that come in, weren't proposing to use the sterilant. But it's it's still I mean, if you look at the size of that one, it's roughly 1% of our current ag land in Cache County for that one project.

You remember the remember how they talked about the longevity? The life? Yeah. It's about forty years. Yeah. Well, they that's what they say. How does that really Technology is more rapid than that. And that's what's actually caused a lot of these to change so much as matter of fact, after, you know, just a few years, getting things and replacing and replacing panel, all that, that technology is gone after just a few years. And so they have to redo whole things. You know, everything's just changing so rapidly that, that's, you know, a lot that's what's caused, I know, down in Beaver. I thought it was Beaver County, the one that Yeah. I think it was Beaver. I think it was Beaver or something. Anyway, and that was the one they just said, hey, you know, we we just can't afford to even maintain this because it's everything's changed. You can't get these now because they've gone to a different kind and a different kind. So rapid in such a short time.

And if I could just throw one other anecdotal thing in. I was I was in Carbon County this last week and and discussed with somebody who lived in a community. I said, oh, you got a big solar project out there. He says says, yeah. It's not running yet. And it's all built. It's built out, but they're they have to make a contract with Rocky Mountain Power. And Rocky Mountain Power is is telling them that they have to improve the transmission lines, and they have to put a whole bunch in. And so that that project is just it's all built, and it's not producing anything. It's just on on hold because they can't get the the transmission through. There's a there was a specific name of the contract that they had. The interconnect contract, I believe, was was the term that they used. And and apparently, that's not an uncommon problem. Shouldn't that be in place though before? You were thinking so.

But on this one, how much was gonna be better?

Because we had to look that from the fire side. I didn't specify. I think that was just more of a general thing. I can double check with them though. They had battery

storage, but I don't remember. Yeah. So could it go could it amp up, go down, whatever? I don't know. That'd be the interesting thing because that was the thing from Fireside is what the battery meant to us. Right? Did you guys did they ever say how much was gonna be there if they go?

Like yeah. Right. It's the landfill.

Yeah. Well, Jay, once you sit up here so you're closer to the planning commission. But then your point when we were discussing this solar thing was the property rights because Yeah. In Cache Junction, it's basically dry farm if you're farming any of it. So

Right. You know, trying to balance those right because you have to you know, you want those landowners to be able to receive the maximum revenue per acre. And so that's the big challenge. Like, Miller County so they have a a corridor in their county that's designated, and that's the only place they can site things even up to transmission lines. And good or bad, it it stops some projects there. But but they have a long history, you know, I don't know, thirty, forty years of the IP the amount of power project out there. And so they're pretty sensitive to what it did to their community when that came in there in the seventies or eighties, whatever that

But I like that idea of a corridor. Like, where in Cache County would we be happy or acceptable with having the solar farm? Like, is

is that something we wanna discuss? Be our issue. Is it if you if you talk to any solar proponent, right, it needs to be where that transmission Where the lines are. That's from North Logan across the valley to Cutler. Right? Right where we don't want it. Yeah. And so right there. It may be that it doesn't fit in Cache County. Those large solar just may not fit. I think the best place to put it in in Cache County is over in Box Elder County.

There's lots of places out there that are just fine for this sort of thing, but I Like, next to their nuclear plant. Yeah. They got a nuclear.

Well, the commissioners thought about that. I mean, I remember Brady saying, is this what we want in Cache Valley? So is it? And the corridor idea, but just like you said, Nate It has to be it fits over there. Everybody in Logan and Providence and North well, I think everybody in the Valley is gonna see it. I do I do think we want to

make it possible for the smaller scale stuff. Yes. So to

from solar. I just do not see it. Especially when we don't get to keep the electricity.

Yeah. I wanna come back to that. I didn't finish my thought on that because I well, I didn't see really any way to control where they sell it, which is probably not to us because we're paying, like, 10¢ a kilowatt hour, which is highly competitive compared to the rest of the nation. There is a often a first right of refusal or right of first refusal clause where the the local utility has the opportunity to bill for that or build any kind of transmission lines first. So that was in the the example that I sent you. So it it we can't totally rule out revenue, plus there's the point of the property owner's revenue as well. I know how y'all like personal property rights.

I love them.

Yeah. Well, you can make a corridor that doesn't necessarily have work for them. It doesn't work.

Is is there a place in Cache County that would be it's far enough away and it wouldn't be anybody's way and we would be accept we would accept that?

We'd we'd have to know costs, transmission line costs. And I I can't imagine that the power company I I don't know. Those costs would have to be part of the developer's cost, I would think.

But if I was a farmer of Dry Farm and I saw this come in next to me and heard what they were paying rent, that makes a pretty sweet deal for what grain prices and things are going right now. So in that tune, I'm trying to respect the property rights, but I get what the executive is saying. Personally, I don't

mean, where in Cache Valley does somebody not see the whole part of Cache Valley? Well, Castledale is different down there, and I I can't imagine they got that many transmission lines. I didn't look. And they're they're here and there. They've stuck them in gullies and ravines, so you can't even really see them all. But they've got a bunch spread out. Or it seems more spread out with Castle Vale.

Well

I I I think there probably is places where it could work, but, you know, if we're talking a few 100 acres versus a thousand or more, that's a whole another scale. It seem difficult to fit that scale of a project without people seeing it. I could see a few 100 acres though, like, there's some old gravel pits and stuff like that, areas like that that are not But they're not close to the lines. Right? They may not be. Yeah. I mean, there's other challenges with places like that.

So what direction do we give our planners?

Helpful? Can we say that Beautiful Valley doesn't need this? I mean, if they can't if they don't want to allow us as they want to share it, we can just We can

we we have to say an ordinance, this is not permitted. Not a permitted use in any zone. Correct. And that is And that provides clarification as well. Just like one of the use types we have right now that's not permitted in any zone is a nuclear facility. So we have done it in that type of thing just to rule it out as a potential use. So let's chase that direction. You can

say the larger scale option is

essentially eliminating it to Well, on ours, you'd still could deal with twenty twenty acres or under Right. Current Yeah.

Direct

or over that would not be like that.

Non contiguous acreage. Because if you go continue contiguous or, you know, you they'll go twenty twenty twenty twenty twenty twenty. Yeah. You know, try to chain them. They'll find it. They'll find it after non contiguous.

K. Let's move on to the Water. Meat of the subject. Mister executive, I don't know if you've been updated on what we've talked on before, but we're focusing on the fact that water is something that we all wanna protect. So we're looking at recent subdivisions applied to the county of 20 homes or more. So we're looking at addressing where the RU 2 subdivision or zoning could be as well as the RU 5 close to a municipality. We already have that as a guideline for RU twos. And then as we sit and look at this water study limiting to the maximum number of homes that could be built in unincorporated county to seven. Right? Seven homes. And so trying to put the kibosh of 20 lot subdivisions because of the impact of water. We also wanna talk about septic tanks where we can look at that. So we I'm not saying we initiate that now, but I'm saying we need to be talking so that we're looking at some ground water improvement. Do you have any input from that, mister executive?

I'd like to see development within the cities and not in the unincorporated kind of so that's just a baseline of where I am.

And that's where we're trying to get also because these 20 lot subdivisions coming in the county just become a mess.

The water engineer and the rule is you can only draw enough water to water a quarter acre and your culinary needs. What that means is if we approve anything larger than a quarter acre, it it's gonna be dry. They don't enforce that very well. That is I see

go ahead. So I guess, kind of. So so if you are an original parcel pre 1998, you can get one domestic water right for that parcel and for a home. But but if you have a home with five acres and you drill a well, you can have enough water rights to irrigate that full five acres out of that well if you purchase other water rights and put them to that well. Right. If you purchase other water rights. Yeah. You only get the the free and most most lots that are built have been split after that, so they don't get that base water right anyways. They're purchasing And to wanted to pay the commissioners

get this. Order right.

Yeah. Yeah. In a lot of cases. And and and you would have to click on every one of those wells to see what their actual water right is.

Right. Or they could have irrigation Yeah. Second. Yeah. Secondary. Most of it's secondary. I understand

that. But

what I'm concerned about is approving Holmes with this minimal right, and then not having enough water, and then drawing the water out, and the state not enforcing it.

Is that an issue? Well, that that's part of the reason we were looking at these bigger subdivisions. Do we we require them to put in a community water system and one well that is now regulated by a state. And metered. And and yeah. It would be metered also because that that may make sense long term. And pressured for for fire. Yeah. And then they have fire protection. So there's a lot of benefits to have in that community system. There's also a lot of problems that come Skyler, you you wanna voice anything here from the state engineer?

Yes. It's Can I come up? Come up, please?

for the for the state. And, it's it's September 1999 is the key date, and they can't have access to other water sources for that free water, quote, unquote. And then I mean, yes, there's Culinary. Cul what do you mean? Culinary. Only access other access to, like, culinary resource. Well, so it it's set up that way. So, like, me living in Logan, my parcel is in existence. I can't just go file to get a well and and and and draw extra water.

That's what that's written in there for. If you're living for example, if you're in the county and you're living right next, say your land borders the city

If they will provide you with water bills, but most of these cities have got ordinances that won't. Yeah. Then we would approve them for the small amount of water. And then, yes, there's certainly a lot of people that do irrigate more, when we go up and prove up on that, we will inform them that they are exceeding. But there's probably just as many that are not irrigating as much as they have a right to. So you see both of them when you go out there. So it it's it's on both sides. So it probably equals out, but it takes somebody smarter than me to go out and totally figure it out. Or or meters, they aren't required. Meters are required for all one of these. On every home. So on every well, it is required. Now we do not I didn't it's not enforced necessarily, but if ever we were in a state where we had to record, we would force the homeowner to put a meter on at their own expense because it is required with each approval of the state engineer. I don't know where it but in some discussion that I had that it basically,

they said that well, if you have one well supplying maybe the half a dozen homes, usually, the bigger well will have a meter that does that versus

So, yeah. So there's meter for every little if they had six wells. So yeah. Meters always required. But usually for a larger subdivision, so like, I don't know, Paradise West Homeowners Association, we're gonna require them to report to our water use program, which means that they're gonna have a to have to have a totalizing meter, and they have to report that number to us every year. And we go out and inspect these systems to make sure that they are that they are providing accurate numbers. Okay.

So Andrew drew up kind of a look at the r u two and r u fives, but you commissioners don't have it. So I've asked r Andrew to go get a copy so we can look at that as we look at the r u twos and the r u fives.

The yes? We talked also about okay. We would have been a certain distance of the city limit that they could petition the city to increase that, but they had to be able to hook on the city.

Well, like we talked, I don't know of a city in the valley that wants to let water go outside of the municipality

area. They would petition them to be annexed.

True. We've asked that most of the time when when we do the r u twos. You can't annex an island or Yeah. Whatever.

Right. You gotta be right next to it to be eligible. Is that we we talked about it being, you know, within a certain distance of the city, annexation by him.

And and that's so the executive's point, we'd we'd want that within the cities. And so I believe you got I gave my paper to Andrew to go make a copy. Andrew, what's it saying as far as the RU two, RU fives?

Based on the last conversation we had on this, I would get this just a One second. And if I have basically the same thing or it's a half mile distance from

River Health, you guys wanna help us here on that? I think you've you came back to the type of soil was the biggie, right, rather than lot size.

Yeah. Yes. I'm on that picture.

Yeah. I think where we landed was, you know So so if I understand or sorry. It could be depending on the soil type, it it could be as small as a half an acre. It's not a problem.

So it's all dependent on the water source. So if if they have a connection to a well, then that's where you move into the larger lot size, which would be an acre to an acre and three quarters. So if if there's a water system that supplies water, then you can go 12,000 square feet to a half acre size. So that's that's the the breaking point is the well or the the water supply.

So if there was a subdivision

Yeah. Some of them were. Yeah. They're they're at the I think they're around the acre range because of the soil perks. And then it's not a clay soil up in that area. Okay? North Smith Field's got down to a half.

But how do we use planning zoning though? Is that gonna have to be a new requirement that identifies who do who makes that decision? I mean, all ultimately, they advise. But before it ever comes to us with the breakdown, or they try and break it down again thereafter, that needs to be relevant of what the what he's saying.

But I think we've I think we've always put that in a condition, correct, that the that they have approval from the Bear River Health Department on that. But maybe that's prior to recordation. They have to have a permit in place. Right. Right. Yep.

So do we need any tweaking on the septic thing or what?

Well, we we run alternate systems too, and all if you went that direction, it'd change everything. But

Yeah. Are we are we considering if you have more than or up to seven lots that they would have their own water system? And then that would change the septic requirements. Like, they're connected. Right. If there's no water system for the grouping of homes, then that changes the distance that the septic tanks have to be apart from each other. And leave it back. And I don't know if our code currently gives that designation.

What we wanna try and avoid and what we plan for is proposals will come in where they want to combine a well for, say, four or five lots. But we still require the larger lot size because what happens is they they decide they don't want to be on that same well anymore and so they want to drill their own well. And so that's the the backup plan. Because if if you size it for the combined well size, then if they wanna get off that system, they don't have enough acreage to to put a well in for their lot.

So that's just another thing. This is 60. Yeah. Is there

a step by step code or or decision tree that somebody that's proposing building a home can go to the the health department website and see, you know, these are the requirements. Or is that something that I'm just trying to think as a as a planning commission and and a council. Is that something that we could point them to ahead of time? Then we can

It would help us, wouldn't it? Yeah. Because it it

you know, it's not our job to determine whether they have adequate septic. No. It's that's the health department's job to to do that. But I think we need a good connection there that that we can point them to. They come in and sit down with staff and and do a do a meeting prior to starting their project, their proposal. They have, hey. Here's the here are the requirements from the health department. That's gonna help them scope the size of their lots and

all of that. So Yeah. On that note too, if if a particular area has been evaluated, how long does it before it needs to be reevaluated?

In other words, do they And some of it's gonna be squishy because it's gonna be based on a perk test and all of all of that. But I just wonder if there's a line by line, you know, if there's a well on it. If there's a well on the property, this is the minimum lot size. Yeah.

We we can formalize that. We have you know, it's mostly just by educating them when they get their permit, but we can make that more formal.

It would I think it would help because when you see these subdivisions come in, the thing we did is the next door neighbors are saying, okay. What about my well or what about this going in? Then they can lick, click on something. We can at least say, hey. If you've gone to the Bear River Health Department website, click this. Maybe buy zones in the county, whatever else. I don't know. It would help on that. Just like you said, K Mount Sterling, no clay there, so we should be good. And they've at least got okay. I got a guideline of soil types or something.

I'd also like to point out one more thing. We have situations where a homeowner will place their well near or next to a property line, which affects the neighboring property and where they can place their septic system. So we have to also look at those issues as well because there's a setback distance requirement. Do that so that they can inhibit

any kind of development on the other side. Yeah. That's how you maintain an open space illegally.

Did we discuss on the seven max houses of a water system based on so many houses? Because we talked source protection before. Right? Did we get anywhere there? Seven from the state because that's where they're not required. So that's what we that's the over seven lots,

then the state requires you to be a public water system. That's where that's where that number came from from our last So we're staying away from the public water right now for Until we have that groundwater study. Groundwater study. That's a good idea. So thanks for reminding me of that.

Thank you. I

The

Block the killing. They all agree to annexation, and that part of our approval system is that they've agreed to annexation.

If they're within the the annexation

already identified annexation plan for that So that's something that the purchase agreement's gotta say. Annexation and then that's where you're going. Ourselves. Part of it. Whether or not we can require that they would be annexed. Because we can't tell the municipality they have to annex them.

current council can't tie a future council. For sure. Take, for instance, Wellsville City. Wellsville City had a moratorium because of water. So subdivision, this came before us, and Wellsville was sitting there. First thing Wellsville was gonna say is, no. We're not annexing because we'd have a moratorium on water. So there are some conditions that would stop that if there is a moratorium or what the city is saying. Am I right?

We did respect it around Mendon for a time because Mendon had a flat moratorium, and and we took that into consideration on the multiple items that was proposed out there or asked about.

By the time some cities annex into what their current annexation boundaries are We're all gone. It may be a different city that's annexing that area. I mean, every inch of the county, for the most part, other than the mountains, is in a city annexation. Yes. It's been mapped out. But it may be a hundred and fifty years before Mennon gets north of Valley View Highway.

What I'm trying to do is figure out a way to to cause the annexation to happen. And and I'm I'm sensitive, Mark, to what you said is can we legally require but it seems to me that when we have quasi urban subdivisions around these cities. We want to get them annexed as soon as we can. Copies of this to Jason and to told in the system that says I'd like their comments of this Part of part of the plat approval is the people who buy the lot have agreed to an annexation by a municipality.

on that? We've had we've had situations where a city was more than willing to annex a parcel in that they were trying to trying to rezone, but the applicant did not want to annex into the city, because it cost more, or whatever their impact fees, or or whatever. I wonder if if there could be language in the code where we said, if the municipal if the an adjoining municipality is agreeable to annexation, we we cannot approve a rezone.

And that that's the way I would like to set it up, and I would like to do everything we can to encourage people not to build in the county. A different rule where you're talking about a family that's running a farm that wants another house next to but that's a completely different thing than a subdivision. I mean, one of our problems in terms of our cost is if we get seven lot subdivisions scattered around the county, mad out there has to build roads and keep roads, and people say, well, it's cheaper to build in the county than the city. I don't think that's right. I think it costs all of us more money when people build in the county than when they build in the city. So I think we have the right to say, if a city is willing to annex you You have to. You have to annex. We're not going to approve a a rezone. Yeah. And I I agree. It's a stick we take out of their out of their bundle. If we say, you wanna do a seven lot subdivision, you you put a covenant on that that when a city want to annex you, you will agree to the annexation. It it still requires a petition from someone. Some neighbor or whatever is gonna have to make the effort to do it, but objecting to an annexation is not in the county's interest.

So one question though. When we sit and talk to a city, there have been cities who have said, we wanna annex it, but our zone is different than what you're looking at from an RU two. So meaning that wouldn't be an automatic annexation into the city because it doesn't match with their zoning in that area. Does that make sense?

Yes. But you think they can rezone it once they put it in their city

change that. Yes. But, Nolan, I I really don't want people bargaining with us versus versus And I agree with you. And so if if a city says we'll annex it, but but this is the zone we're gonna put you in when we annex you. I I don't think

But that also goes back to the requirement if there's seven lots that they have a water system that can be wouldn't that be easier to integrate into the municipality when they are annexed? And and so that would be another reason to require that at at the very first, is to have that water system.

I think that's the broader point George is making is in the city. That's where the infrastructure is with roads, with water, everything. It reduces sprawl. I think there's a lot of reasons to

encourage growth and That's why that water coat's gonna be so broad. Right? It's gonna have to say, if it's next to this city, you gotta go with this design for your water system. It's this city. You meet their design.

I should tell you that one of the things I think about when I think about our financial situation, unincorporated area and make it a service district and have a tax on that service district to pay for the things that an unincorporated district cost cost the county as a whole to operate.

we're walking into that discussion because we've got the fire district, which basically covers what you're talking about that we gotta come up with. It's a real serious problem because Totally. We're

as we spread things out in the county, we have more and more cost of those, and yet we're taxing the people in the cities to pay for those things.

yeah. So when is our six month moratorium?

That's great. They're going to move to Franklin County if it's two two weeks. I don't know. There's no question about it. I don't know. They already are. Yeah. Right. You know, that highway, which one that goes past my house. That's right. Freeway. In the January. Hundred eighty days is up. When's our six months on a moratorium? Do you get? Think? There's only one there's only one thing that slows the February from Smithfield to the Idaho border. I thought mid January. That's my tractor.

Anybody in the audience have anything to say before we continue on? We we appreciate you guys being here. Anybody wanna make a comment? Please do. It helps us in this.

In line

with what's Fair River Health Department. In line with what you all are talking about, we've already developed a standard. We have a multiplier. The Board of Health developed a multiplier. How long ago was that? Two years ago or so? So subdivisions that are being proposed, if they're within 150 feet times the number of lots in a straight line to a municipal connection to sewer, they have to go request from the city a connection to sewer. Our experience is sometimes the cities still deny that connection And we saw that this year. Yeah. To sewer. Even when they're directly adjacent to it, some cities say, we don't want that development in our city. And so we're trying to encourage it as much as we can, and we put that multiplier effect in place across all three counties. But I wish there were a perfect way because I do think that there's a better, cheaper way to development that protects groundwater and resources a lot better than a lot of septic systems in our community. So we do have that in place. I just wanted to put that on your your radar.

Thanks, Jordan.

Water's one of the biggest issues for us. As as homes continue to get bigger and bigger in size, the furnishings inside those inside them continues to grow in volume. The water requirements continue to escalate through that process. A fire that used to take up or a house that used to take about 833 gallons a minute to supply is now upwards of 1,200 gallons a minute to supply. And so having these communities that are more and more remote from static or excuse me, pressurized water sources becomes very problematic for us. We made the commitment as a county years and years ago to rely on tender task force. That will only support fire operations for a very limited period of time. Hopefully, long enough to search the space and remove any occupants that are in there. But as far as being able to compete with a pressurized water source, it is not possible. And so I I hate to burst bubbles on that one. I'd rather have very plain and direct conversations about that. When we talk about having these seven, residents communities put in their own water source, that makes a night and day difference to them. If we can connect to that and continue to flow at the rate that's required, we can save properties. If we can't, then what we do is we save adjacent properties, and we lose the primary in the process.

So I have a question. Have have we looked at all the alternatives that there are to protect these dwellings against fire?

So, obviously, code enforcement does a lot of that, and the county's done a great job of requiring sprinklers in a lot of these places. Sprinklers will work inside, but they're completely dependent upon the maintenance of the owner of the property to sustain that flow within the space. One of the biggest issues with a sprinkler system that's fed off of a well is as soon as the fire impacts the electrical system in the house, the well shuts off, and now there is no water. So we're right back to the tender task force. We have, I think, four four thousand gallon tenders and one two thousand gallon tender that are distributed throughout the county. And if we're close to a pressurized water source, we can maintain a fairly good flow for an extended period. But the farther we get from the cities that have those pressurized sources for us, the harder it is to maintain that flow rate. But what about a generator? Generators would definitely help in that process. They'd have to have almost a dedicated system that fed that. A lot of times with the way they're integrated for, like, a backup generator for a house is if it kicks on, it runs through the exact same system that's already impacted by fire. So unless it's fed only to, the pump for the fire sprinklers, that's the only way we'd be able to control that. Does that answer the question? Well, I mean,

I I personally have a problem because I my house is in the middle of Providence, and we're way away from a fire hydrant. We have a huge pond, and so we put a generator in that if electricity goes down, it pumps pond. That works, I think.

Yeah. But you have both the pond

and and that other option that it's there. It's hard for us to create a requirement that forces everybody to put it on. I I I'd love to have it. It'd be beautiful. But Putting in a generator will will suck the water out of the well. In case of a fire, it's a different in the 7 Lot subdivision, you could put a generator on the well that would generate the electricity

to create the pressure to get to the well in a fire, can't you? On the larger subdivisions, seven and above, yes. That would work because the flow is gonna be be equal to all of the residences within that. No. That's expensive.

And and the point is, if you wanna protect those houses, that's what you've got to do. And frankly, it isn't really the houses. It's the lives of the people in the houses. Absolutely.

So, like, I'm septic system. I'm on a well. I told my wife right off the bat because we live in a very rural area. Thirty years in the system, if our house is on fire, get everyone out, plan on it burning to the ground. I hate telling her that. It it's her dream home, but that's the sad reality of it. If we were to put in a dry hydrant off of our off of our well, a fire engine without the assistance of an internal pump cannot pump water that high. 30 feet is about the maximum theoretical lift that we can can get out of that. My well is a 160 feet deep. I I can't draw it. Even if that pump is on, it will not supply a fire pump, which could pump upwards of 1,500 gallons per minute. It just won't feed that much. So you can see that it it's a very interconnected problem that is very hard to overcome without

very large pumps and very large either wells or or feeding it through a system. Yeah. That that was my question. So I didn't realize we were re well, it's not required to put the water system in. Is that voluntary or is it required? Where? On some well, you mentioned that some of these have the water systems in them. Is that voluntary or are we telling them after a certain size? Certain terms. I believe she's speaking to this more specific. But do they have cisterns to go with them, or it's back to like you said?

Some will have a fire pump that has a required tank capacity that's there. It's based upon what upon what the occupancy is intended to be and the size of the structure. Now over time, if the occupancy changes, that cistern and pump system may no longer be enough. Think about just residential structures. In the nineteen seventies, when all the fire flows were created, it was five to seven pounds per square foot of BTUs or of combustible materials inside the space. There are some that are estimating now it's 25 to 35 pounds per square foot. Our BTUs per pound increased from 6,000 to 9,000 to 18,000 to 22,000. So we have about a tenfold increase in the amount of energy in the same size space that we had just in residential occupancies. That doesn't take into account commercials. And I and I hate to throw out numbers like that, but that's how we equate the math in our heads. So

The fact of the matter is, in rural homes, we cannot protect them from buying.

Not to the same rate that we can in municipalities with a pressurized water source. Yes. Yeah. That's And insurance rates reflect that often.

They do.

So I think we added before we ever dug the hole, so

We kinda narrowed it down. Like, I I feel like we need to have something concrete before our moratorium is over. And the way Andrew has this drafted, if you want seven home a subdivision of seven homes, you have to be within the annexation plan of a municipality, and we're talking about having some kind of a requirement to agree to that annexation. And then, also, I think they should be required to have a water system so that it can be integrated into that municipality.

I think the 700

we talked about, we wouldn't require Yeah. No. But anything over seven. Up well, seven would be the the cutoff. Well, seven puts you virtually in any part of the unincorporated part of the county as far as annexation zone because every city's marked their annexation zone. So, really, what we're saying is the seven lot has to be a 10 because we're not gonna rezone it down to an r u five or an r u two. So 77 Lot Subdivision is in a 10, and they've gotta give us 70 acres. And so but we're at at my point, Sandy, we're not asking for a water project in these seven lots because if it's 70 acres, that would be an encumbrance

a chunk of the of the challenges. Yeah. Because those those are a lot of what we've seen. The big ones that have kept But the big ones have been for a 10. 250

acres. Yep. So they even if we wanted to, I don't know that okay. So you take the one that's 250 acres, and they did 20 homes. How do we even begin to think about a water project in that? Because that's the size of a city almost. But it would help from the standpoint of fire because they'd have a a water situation, and it helps as far as septic tanks for those who are neighboring

neighborhood areas too. You wanna give Matt an opportunity to

Yeah.

Environmental quality.

So did you have any points?

Nothing that I didn't say in the last meeting.

Has anyone checked, like like, the Weber Base And Water District? Like, do they have already some kind of guidelines or codes? Wholesaler. Oh, okay. They're that's not gonna help us. Like, I thought maybe some other county has already dealt with this this issue as far as water and septic as they develop. Yeah. They do, but they're still so different than us. Yeah. Okay. So they're they've got water lines

crisscross in the county private and sometimes public water systems. And so if you're within a half mile, you have to hook to those. But most of our subdivisions

so it's similar but so different. So if we did require a water system, say someone wants eight eight lots, and we're gonna say you're required to put in a water system. Is that something that obviously, it's not a one size fits all, but is it something that our water district could help with, Nathan? Or is it Maybe. But, again, that's gonna take multiple

that's gonna take months of discussion because it again, it varies like like By soil. By soil. Well, if you've got, you know, eight twenty acre lots on a 160 acre parcel, it still may not make sense to run two miles of pipeline and drill. So there's there's a lot of stuff we need to discuss, I think, before we get to that point. But I think the like, there's 21 in in Mount Sterling. Right? It probably would have made sense for that to be a community run system. Whether it's the district that runs that or a private system. Though those type probably makes sense. And that's really what Box Elder County does. Those bigger systems are run by the water district. They're put into certain specs. The developer puts the whole system in, drills the well, meets all those requirements, and then the district or or the city takes that system over.

So in a sense, we need to be heading to that area where the water district is

getting ramped up to help us in those situations. Or what's your thoughts there? We're having discussions on it. Yeah. I think we're there. We're we're working that direction. But but one is to having that water study to see, you know, are there areas in the county where it makes more sense to have one? Are there areas in the county where real 10 wells, it's it's really not that critical as long as they're, you know, meeting their water right requirement on the ground. Because one one city well, right, doesn't equate to a thousand private wells for what we're taking out of the ground. And so and we and we don't do a thousand private wells over.

So in my view, Andrew, we need either extend the moratorium or have this in place before

that's that until that study comes out because we're just That was part of the reason for the draft as is, like, you went over seven lots. You have to connect with the municipal water supply and connect with municipal sewer because we have all these questions about the water and how we wanna do those details on it. But that's just a tail. Right? So the Nissan, if you wanna go something like this, I think that'd be an option, pursue if you wanted to.

It sure be not, because I know the one in Mount Sterling did apply to Wellsville for sewer and water. And Said no thanks. Said no thanks.

No thanks or whatever that's I guess, depends on what the goals are. Depending on what you wanna do, if that makes sense.

Well, if you go back to what John White said as a mayor of Paradise, he says if I allow these out here outside of municipality, they're still in my municipality using many things that both the city offers. So he says it it behooves us to plan with them if we annex them and everything else. So

Do we wanna hear from Matt? Yeah. Matt, you got anything?

Matt Phillips, public works director. I don't we've we've had this meeting a few times, Nolan, but I I do think that I look for Benson, and mister Watterson lives there. Right? They're not they're in the unincorporated part of the county. They have a water system. They have fire hydrants. They have all that. It's not the water district, but it's still a water system and it functions well. They have the fire hydrants. When people come in near Benson, they're on. It's it changes things. So I think you got to start somewhere. So, you know, for me, it's hard to think that we let someone build right next to Logan, but they can't hook on to Logan's water and they can't hook on to Logan's sewer. When the sewer, you know, runs from Smithfield all the way to Logan because we're collecting all of Smithfields and then it's piped all the way through the county to Logan. And you think of Millville, right? Millville piped their sewer down the highway out through higher room and around. So it seems like we have water and sewer going everywhere, but each city kind of says, nope, this is mine and no one can touch it. And so I think eventually if we want to keep some space out in the county, you're gonna have to have some kind of sewer water districts in the and the sooner we start that, I think, the better off we are. So Boy, that just got deeper from what Nate Nate said too. I'm getting this all drafted. So Yeah. It's a lot. But I do I do see the roads and the fire. You know, we work very closely together, and and that's the same thing. Right? We're fighting how do we get fire trucks to these areas to fight fires? Where to work can we have fire hydrants? When the county built their facility in Richmond, we had to have a 30,000 gallon water tank. You know, so there is cost. There is. But fire is important. And I see Jason's need out there. There's are very rural. The roads aren't always great to get there. Their tenders are trying to go up and down. Making sure that he has all that is so I support Jason in trying to get more fire hydrants and different things out there, and I think the cities need to to help us a little bit with all their water lines that are going back and forth by helping put some hydrants and different things. But

Brady? Nolan, I don't know if that one subdivision still out there has a fight to chance, but I feel very strongly. I know that the law has changed recently that we used to be able to tell subdivisions, you know, we gotta go over this and this and this. But now I think it's one one stand, and we gotta approve it. And I know that the subdivision on that well, above the dam wasn't totally legit to start with, but we can't we can't allow that many homes going out there with one access. Not at all.

Andrew, we're to the point that we're good on standing on that. Right? Of course, that's outside the subject. I don't know if they should bring that up now. Well, water, you talked about fire.

Yep. Okay. We we'll leave that off. But looking ahead, I mean and and I still understand they weren't approved coming in, but probably should have never heard them from the start with. I've said that from the get go.

So so we need that It took too much time of you guys' time and ours. So

Well, it got us in a predicament. So whether we go seven lots or whatever, if there's a number of homes in the area that we're already servicing with limited roads, we we can't even consider it.

Well, I think what Andrew wrote up on the RU twos and the RU fives. Are you guys good with us heading that way?

What do you think? From what I can see, I I'm I'm pretty much I think put it put it in front of us and Yeah. Yeah. Let's let's get it recommended back to you guys. Let's start there. It's a great question. We're at on the extending our

moratorium Is that? And seeing if we can come down to this out in the outside the seven lot max. I don't see. Could we also look at that annexation

question, whether we can build in a

Let us know.

K. Because we've often, you know, everyone's throwing out all when you hit seven, seven and over seven no. It's Seven. Under and then

Your predecessor, he told us that in Box Elder County, they were requiring subdivisions to do a test well first to prove to prove there's water there. Is that right? Or help me on My understanding from talking to Box Elder County is they require wet water. So, yes, they require

a well drilled.

Demonstrate that it's of whatever quality and quantity necessary. So can we look at that too, Andrew? Yeah. So if if you look at the proposed subdivision one, they're in Pat. In there? I think that's huge. That I think I think that's that's one of the best

Mhmm. Well, yeah. You go out and spend that much for a lot. At least, you know, you get something rather than a license. Purchase or anything.

Just for reference, that would be God. God. Gambling out of the issue.

Are you talking about paragraph five where it says, application provide proof of actual water?

Actual does mean wet water. So And is it top quality?

So I think we're close. If we if we approved some of the stuff before January, we're RU twos and RU fives is a big step. Yeah. And if we can look at the One of these is pretty close. Okay.

Hey. Because guys like to win. Like Commissioners.

Yep. So RU two, RU five, we're you're all good. Let's move that way.

Yep. Yep.

Yes. Get it fast. If you've got any news on the seven and the moratorium, let's see how that goes. If we can even I don't know if we can process it, but Maybe another time. We still have a little more discussion on lot sizes

because it seems like even there in Smithville, I mean, they come in one time and they get it. And we and they get it. And then they come back and break it up again. That Birch Creek Estates got split three times. And they were originally trying to get into Smithfield. Smithfield didn't want them. They come to us. We finally let them in. But then, again, they broke it down two more times after. Smaller lots, more homes.

Yeah? I don't know where we go there though.

annexation? I mean, we got the options.

Yeah. Yeah. The zone dictates the lot side. The zone takes

if you look at the if you look at the subdivision going out there by me and Kurt, it's twin it's 200 and some odd acres, but yet some lots are incredibly large, and a couple lots are incredibly small, but yet they've dedicated 200 and some odd acres. So

how do we adjust that from that? Can you stop from coming back and re breaking

it. And is there a stop to that, you guys, or what?

Yeah.

Yeah. If they take away from that original 200 and some odd acres, though, right? Because as long as they've dedicated that for 20 lots, then they're good no matter what lot size they want to put in there. Am I wrong? Yes. They agree. Yes. They agree. More lots.

And one option might be to you might remember a couple years ago, we in 08/10, we stopped taking out, like, sensitive areas and road dedications from the net developable acreage and just let them have their density based on gross acreage. So we could always reverse that and that could, you know, take steep slopes out or take wetlands, open water, and any road dedication out of their net development, which could

reduce their number of lots by two or three depending on So your office is impacted on the next planning and zoning commission on this RU two, RU five based on what you've seen. Are you okay with that steaming forward? Yeah. We sat down with Andrew and looked through it. So

Okay. We tried to work through all the scenarios. So I think we're Any other comments from you guys out there?

Anybody else? I will say thank you for being here, especially to the planning and zoning. You got all seven of you here. You guys are awesome. Yeah. Thank you for all, too. We appreciate you. You don't get enough things. You don't get enough pay. We know that. But We should have brought doughnuts. Yes.

There you go. I like this guy even more.

Oh, yeah. I'll do it right now. Motion to adjourn.